This is not suppossed to start a fight or get people all pi$$ed off, but this is what I find so sad about aviation forums/the industry. If you look at any other forums (cars, sports, hobbies) they all use there own names and have close personal relationships out side of the forum. Sure their handles may be different but when they sign their name it is the real one that appears. We all here (myself included) are afraid (other than Mr. .) to use/post our actual names. I'm not sure why this occurs, maybe afraid of appearing like a pilot nerd or the constant slamming of companies and individuals would ruin our reputations in the small world of aviation. Drawing comparisons to the industry, some of us would sell our mothers to get that next job or work for free or pay for our training. What I'm trying to say is we all have a common interest, it should not be as cut throat as it is. I realize it is a competative industry but we should all relax and take pride in what we do and share our experience and thoughts with eachother instead of bashing each other's Company or type of aircraft flown. Tell me if I'm completly wrong here or not?!?!? My two cents...bring on the typical bashing and please point out all grammatica errors.
N
What is sad about all aviation forums
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
Good point, but I think the biggest difference is that the other forums you mention are exactly that - hobbiest/enthusiasts. Aviation forums tend to be a mix where many of the enthusiasts also work in the industry. If I log on to a Ford Mustang website for instance, I can say what I want about the car or the company using my real name and no sweat. If I worked at Ford and many of the other people on the forum did also, I would be less likely to be as candid.
That's the one most unique thing I've seen as a recent and somewhat late comer to aviation is that so many of the workers are entusiasts. That's very different than any other business I've been associated with.
So, if you do sign your own name and then say something inflamatory or state an opinion that may be controversial, it's possible that another on the board could be influenced negatively and that would impact your current and/or future employment.
And, since all pilots are egotists (stemming from the fact we are all very competent and shoulder a lot of responsiblity) if as a newcomer we venture to contribute and mistate some aspect of flying, we tend to be looked down on and ridiculed by the more experienced/knowledgeable folks. As an anonymous contributor that is a learning experience, as an identifiable person it is humiliating and dries up the urge to contribute.
That's how I see it anyway.
That's the one most unique thing I've seen as a recent and somewhat late comer to aviation is that so many of the workers are entusiasts. That's very different than any other business I've been associated with.
So, if you do sign your own name and then say something inflamatory or state an opinion that may be controversial, it's possible that another on the board could be influenced negatively and that would impact your current and/or future employment.
And, since all pilots are egotists (stemming from the fact we are all very competent and shoulder a lot of responsiblity) if as a newcomer we venture to contribute and mistate some aspect of flying, we tend to be looked down on and ridiculed by the more experienced/knowledgeable folks. As an anonymous contributor that is a learning experience, as an identifiable person it is humiliating and dries up the urge to contribute.
That's how I see it anyway.
I totally agree with you Naya, it is truly a sad industry indeed if your best friend would stab you in the back to get to where you are. Obviously the market is so oversaturated to the point that the workplace can not support the amount of capable people out there. I'm probably out to lunch here, but I think that the government should regulate how many CPL licences that are given out in a given year. Anybody with enough experience can attain a CPL or ATPL these days. It doesn't help that the subsidized programs in ON (and that's just ON, there are tonnes of other college programs in other provinces) are shelling out like 25-30 students each if not more every year into an overly saturated market. The funny thing is too, that since I've started, I've noticed the attitudes are totally different. Nowadays, students come out of flight training thinking they deserve an IFR job right away. When I started, we all felt lucky to get a shot at flying a float plane in the bush no matter how small! I've seen guys turn down a PC12 because they thought they deserved a two engine machine.......who cares, it's a job!
If they were to regulate how many were given out then maybe the standards would be higher as well and we'd only get the best people. People would be working their asses' off just to earn a shot at getting a CPL instead of working their asses' off on the ramp just to get right seat in a small piston twin for no pay. With all the people out there that are capable, it's no wonder that some offer to fly for next to nothing and spoil our professionalism. Why should employers care how little they pay their flight crews/instructors when there's hundreds of other resumes stacked in their filing cabinets who will take that job for the same $$ if not less. Again, I'm sure most of you will think i'm out to lunch but it's a topic that came up over coffee one day and that idea came up. I tend to agree with it, since it's obvious how downhill things have gone since I started and only seems to be getting worse.
If they were to regulate how many were given out then maybe the standards would be higher as well and we'd only get the best people. People would be working their asses' off just to earn a shot at getting a CPL instead of working their asses' off on the ramp just to get right seat in a small piston twin for no pay. With all the people out there that are capable, it's no wonder that some offer to fly for next to nothing and spoil our professionalism. Why should employers care how little they pay their flight crews/instructors when there's hundreds of other resumes stacked in their filing cabinets who will take that job for the same $$ if not less. Again, I'm sure most of you will think i'm out to lunch but it's a topic that came up over coffee one day and that idea came up. I tend to agree with it, since it's obvious how downhill things have gone since I started and only seems to be getting worse.
You start with a bag full of luck and an empty bag of experience. The trick is to fill the bag of experience before you empty the bag of luck.
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Right Seat Captain
- Rank Moderator
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- Location: Various/based CYOW
I disagree with NAYA, in the effect that most hobbies/enthusiast internet forums I've participated in, such as Auto Performance Tuning forums, posters are just as anonymous as this forum. The idea I think is, that people come to these forums to say what they otherwise would be afraid to say. Here one can say, or critisize anything they like, as in any other forum, and not have their personal reputation affected.
As a side note, just because someone doesn't flaunt their true identity around, doesn't mean they are anonymous. They simply have no reason to disclose their personal info, just like I might not just expose myself in public... Sometimes if you ask someone (via PM) or you check out their website (which you can get to from their profile), there is more you can learn.
As a side note, just because someone doesn't flaunt their true identity around, doesn't mean they are anonymous. They simply have no reason to disclose their personal info, just like I might not just expose myself in public... Sometimes if you ask someone (via PM) or you check out their website (which you can get to from their profile), there is more you can learn.
Last edited by Right Seat Captain on Mon Sep 06, 2004 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I think 5x5 pretty much has got it right. Being able to post a topic anonimously allows you to ask questions, state opinions, and slag certain companies when you know it's going to be a hot topic for others. In an industry this small having that freedom allows you to still walk into work the next day after asking a question that you know everyone knows, but you, and something you might be ridiculed for not knowing. Also being able to talk about the pros and cons of other companies is priceless. I'm sure if everyone knew who you were, you wouldn't learn about as many cons of certain companies being that your much more shy about stating the pitfalls of the company your at if your boss knows who it's you saying it. I know I personally have learned alot about this industry and had a lot of questions answered just from sitting back and reading different threads, and I don't think it would be as informative or entertaining if you could put a face on everyone.
As for only allowing a certain amount of CPLs issued, I don't think that is the answer. Although it does kinda burn me that they still get pretty much a free license in Ont. college programs while we walk away with a 40K debt, they do have to put up with alot in those programs. There would be alot more un-employed pilots if there was a cap put on it, due to lack of work for instructors. I think the natural attrition of pilots from unwillingness to move to some backwoods hole in the ground or being too good to work the ramp or dock somewhere will always weed out the ones who don't really want to make it. I know this is just a general statement and am aware there are a lot of pilots more than willing to do just that, to start from the bottom who still can't find jobs, but I think eventually these guys do make it to where they want to be.
Having a forum set up this way is perfect and allows eneryone to vent some steam once in a while about losers working for free, guys paying for PPCs, etc. If every newly minted CPL took some time to go through some of these threads it would actually solve some of these problems. I'm sure if some kid realized how much he would be outcast for offering to work for free for his first job he would probably think twice about it. I think some of them just don't realize how much it hurts the industry.
As for only allowing a certain amount of CPLs issued, I don't think that is the answer. Although it does kinda burn me that they still get pretty much a free license in Ont. college programs while we walk away with a 40K debt, they do have to put up with alot in those programs. There would be alot more un-employed pilots if there was a cap put on it, due to lack of work for instructors. I think the natural attrition of pilots from unwillingness to move to some backwoods hole in the ground or being too good to work the ramp or dock somewhere will always weed out the ones who don't really want to make it. I know this is just a general statement and am aware there are a lot of pilots more than willing to do just that, to start from the bottom who still can't find jobs, but I think eventually these guys do make it to where they want to be.
Having a forum set up this way is perfect and allows eneryone to vent some steam once in a while about losers working for free, guys paying for PPCs, etc. If every newly minted CPL took some time to go through some of these threads it would actually solve some of these problems. I'm sure if some kid realized how much he would be outcast for offering to work for free for his first job he would probably think twice about it. I think some of them just don't realize how much it hurts the industry.
"Hey, maybe I do have the right........what's that stuff called?"
We pilots truly are a bunch of losers. We put up with all kinds of crap, shit pay, ignorant bosses, and so on, but when the doors are closed and the props are spinning, all is right with the world. And our employers know this and take advantage of it.
If she floats, give er!
yeah, I don't know...
I too have chosen to make myself transparent here- very easy for everybody to find out who I am, where I work, etc. I have done this for five years now, and it works for me ( got suckered into only one childish bashing session)because I don't talk $hit, I try and speak the truth, and welcome other peoples opinions. I think thekey is to never type anything that you wouldn't be willing to say to someone's face.
I too have chosen to make myself transparent here- very easy for everybody to find out who I am, where I work, etc. I have done this for five years now, and it works for me ( got suckered into only one childish bashing session)because I don't talk $hit, I try and speak the truth, and welcome other peoples opinions. I think thekey is to never type anything that you wouldn't be willing to say to someone's face.
Aviation- the hardest way possible to make an easy living!
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
"You can bomb the world to pieces, but you can't bomb it into peace!" Michael Franti- Spearhead
"Trust everyone, but cut the cards". My Grandma.
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corn-shoot
- Rank 7
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That's about the best dose of truth I have read here in a long time. Gonna get it framed and hang it in my office next to my lifeless body, when I get the chanceArrow wrote:We pilots truly are a bunch of losers. We put up with all kinds of crap, shit pay, ignorant bosses, and so on, but when the doors are closed and the props are spinning, all is right with the world. And our employers know this and take advantage of it.
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slowstream
- Rank 7
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- Location: Canada
A great deal of honesty in this one and some really good and valid points!
I've seen and unfortunately have been involved in a few of the topics that went beyond the limit; time to steer clear of those ones.
NAYA for the record I have used my full name in the past especially when involved in conversations with ..
I had a college prof who once said in class not to bother correcting his spelling errors because he thought anyone who could not spell a word more than one way was an idiot.............that worked for me and now I can spell most words in a multitude of ways. I guess when people have ananimity and they are not subject to attacks of the body and other personal attributes then it only leaves ones writing abilities or thoughts.......too bad and sad.
NAYA good topic and good post!!.....................Thanks
I've seen and unfortunately have been involved in a few of the topics that went beyond the limit; time to steer clear of those ones.
NAYA for the record I have used my full name in the past especially when involved in conversations with ..
I had a college prof who once said in class not to bother correcting his spelling errors because he thought anyone who could not spell a word more than one way was an idiot.............that worked for me and now I can spell most words in a multitude of ways. I guess when people have ananimity and they are not subject to attacks of the body and other personal attributes then it only leaves ones writing abilities or thoughts.......too bad and sad.
NAYA good topic and good post!!.....................Thanks
Mr or Ms Naya
I would love to correct the spelling and other errors but it looks pretty good to me. As for the remarks your a hundred percent correct. Almost everyone is out for themselves. take what you can from the forum and discard the rest. By the way did you want to buy a PPC or pad you log book there is a how to contained here.
I would love to correct the spelling and other errors but it looks pretty good to me. As for the remarks your a hundred percent correct. Almost everyone is out for themselves. take what you can from the forum and discard the rest. By the way did you want to buy a PPC or pad you log book there is a how to contained here.
I wish I could spell
hmmm...I'm on here for the hot women.
There was a 'movement' initiated on here last winter with regards to a Professional Aviation Organization. It was picking up steam...however it fizzled out. No solidarity, no initiative. Thats the problem. 1 or 2 individuals won't carry the full weight of all registered pilots and professional engineers.
Getting the Government to limit professional pilot licenses won't create jobs. Think about the kids in the schools that have to teach these young wannabe's. What about their job's and choices to less work opportunuties?
There was a 'movement' initiated on here last winter with regards to a Professional Aviation Organization. It was picking up steam...however it fizzled out. No solidarity, no initiative. Thats the problem. 1 or 2 individuals won't carry the full weight of all registered pilots and professional engineers.
Getting the Government to limit professional pilot licenses won't create jobs. Think about the kids in the schools that have to teach these young wannabe's. What about their job's and choices to less work opportunuties?
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DragEraser
- Rank 3
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- Contact:
Sad to hear that you're here for the chicks. Fly down to YXL and get yourself one! (as i sip on my fort garry dark)
I ain't afraid to use my real name, or even my nickname "UDO" here. Drageraser obviously means Piaggio, so I gave myself up right there. If birddog would have called himself 5 finger Dorris, we'd know where he's at and who he is right off the bat. Ahhhhhh. Se ya'all in YXL this weekend.
JR.
I ain't afraid to use my real name, or even my nickname "UDO" here. Drageraser obviously means Piaggio, so I gave myself up right there. If birddog would have called himself 5 finger Dorris, we'd know where he's at and who he is right off the bat.
Ahhhhhh. Se ya'all in YXL this weekend.JR.
So you're the one flying the 'Itailan Sperm'!?DragEraser wrote:Sad to hear that you're here for the chicks. Fly down to YXL and get yourself one! (as i sip on my fort garry dark)
I ain't afraid to use my real name, or even my nickname "UDO" here. Drageraser obviously means Piaggio, so I gave myself up right there. If birddog would have called himself 5 finger Dorris, we'd know where he's at and who he is right off the bat.
JR.
YXL has been done, angel face. Thanks to me, 'Dorris' has been renamed to a more...'suitable' name. The boy's after me are now calling her 'Lucy'.
I must warn. There are laws against stalking.
....But seriously...there are...
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corn-shoot
- Rank 7
- Posts: 527
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:06 am
- Location: Entrails, SK
[quote="I am Birddog
So you're the one flying the 'Itailan Sperm'!?
I must warn. There are laws against stalking.
....But seriously...there are...[/quote]
Yea you would be one to worry about stalking.
Dumb Dumb, puts his picture on the website, always a reference to the car he's driving annnnd a detailed name as to what his job entails. I can only hope that you live in a big city where it would be hard to point you out.
So you're the one flying the 'Itailan Sperm'!?
I must warn. There are laws against stalking.
....But seriously...there are...
[/quote]Yea you would be one to worry about stalking.
Dumb Dumb, puts his picture on the website, always a reference to the car he's driving annnnd a detailed name as to what his job entails. I can only hope that you live in a big city where it would be hard to point you out.
I wouldn't say it fizzeld out... The CAAP which I think you're addressing BD is still around but it is something that will take time and effort, people seem to forget that..
It's funny you mentioned it but I didn't see too many people from this site helping out but I seem to hear and see a lot of complaining going on.. I guess pilots are full of good intention....but too lazy to do something about it..Not all are but I've learned quite a bit from these forums about how pilots act and think they should be treated...
There are some good individuals helping out but because the summer came around and we need food on the table a lot of people had to work and try to find jobs while to going was good.. Once winter rolls around again I'm sure we'll have those helpful people back again and we can continue forward.. I for one have been trying to keep in touch with those involved... So it's not dead yet
The issuse regarding real names was also discussed in the formation of CAAP..maybe a few more people here should get themselves involved!
Or are we affraid of being black balled for standing up for whats fair?? If not, why won't people help ehh???
My 2 cents
BJ
It's funny you mentioned it but I didn't see too many people from this site helping out but I seem to hear and see a lot of complaining going on.. I guess pilots are full of good intention....but too lazy to do something about it..Not all are but I've learned quite a bit from these forums about how pilots act and think they should be treated...
There are some good individuals helping out but because the summer came around and we need food on the table a lot of people had to work and try to find jobs while to going was good.. Once winter rolls around again I'm sure we'll have those helpful people back again and we can continue forward.. I for one have been trying to keep in touch with those involved... So it's not dead yet
The issuse regarding real names was also discussed in the formation of CAAP..maybe a few more people here should get themselves involved!
Or are we affraid of being black balled for standing up for whats fair?? If not, why won't people help ehh???
My 2 cents
BJ
To mind one's view is to view only one's mind.
I post on my Unions Forum from time to time and the thing that I don't like about it is that it is that we have to use our names and that makes it so P/C that it's often boring. The other consideration is that this is a public forum. If you want to contact any of the guys/gals on here you can PM them and if they want you to know who they are then you will find out. This board is interesting in that a lot of very unique personalities post on here. The fact that they do it by pseudonym makes it all the more funny at times.
I hate to admit it for fear of swelling a few heads, but I enjoy the cutting satire from Bird dog, corn shot ect....
Got to go got a call.
I hate to admit it for fear of swelling a few heads, but I enjoy the cutting satire from Bird dog, corn shot ect....
Got to go got a call.
NAYA
I read your post and fully agree with it, however like it or not how you communicate with others has become paramount in our industry. To have a successful career you have to learn to dot all the “I” and cross all the “T” all the time. In short, develop good safe habits and always do the same thing all the time however boring it may appear to be. That way if you make a mistake and you will, hopefully your behavior pattern will pick it up and save your butt.
On the same line of thought taking the time to use a spell and grammar check on your computer before hitting the send button is a reflection of your own professionalism. Would you want to ride in an airplane with a pilot that doesn’t check everything before attempting a take-off? I’m sure that you get my drift, if the pilot group wishes to gain the respect and money that should be associated with this occupation; then they’ll have to pull up their socks and learn to earn it. You behave sloppy; your employer will treat you sloppy…
Cheers
I read your post and fully agree with it, however like it or not how you communicate with others has become paramount in our industry. To have a successful career you have to learn to dot all the “I” and cross all the “T” all the time. In short, develop good safe habits and always do the same thing all the time however boring it may appear to be. That way if you make a mistake and you will, hopefully your behavior pattern will pick it up and save your butt.
On the same line of thought taking the time to use a spell and grammar check on your computer before hitting the send button is a reflection of your own professionalism. Would you want to ride in an airplane with a pilot that doesn’t check everything before attempting a take-off? I’m sure that you get my drift, if the pilot group wishes to gain the respect and money that should be associated with this occupation; then they’ll have to pull up their socks and learn to earn it. You behave sloppy; your employer will treat you sloppy…
Cheers
Would you want to ride with a pilot that always worries how he appears to others?? His mind is somewhere else 
Rebel,
I'm not sure what you mean with the pull the socks up thing and what you're referencing it to??
And check everything?? Is he/she going to check the torque settings on every nut and bolt I guess so if we're to be professional, yes yes..
Forgive me if I've spelt a word wrong here, I hope it doesn't make me any less of a pilot.... What's spell check and where is it on this forum?
I forgot a word, sorry for the edit.
Rebel,
I'm not sure what you mean with the pull the socks up thing and what you're referencing it to??
And check everything?? Is he/she going to check the torque settings on every nut and bolt
I guess so if we're to be professional, yes yes..Forgive me if I've spelt a word wrong here, I hope it doesn't make me any less of a pilot.... What's spell check and where is it on this forum?
I forgot a word, sorry for the edit.
To mind one's view is to view only one's mind.
I'm sure if Rebel took one of those occupation aptitude tests, he'd be wonderfully suited to working on an automotive assembly line, tightening up lug nuts
You sure sound like you enjoy your life, "Rebel". I might suggest that you change your oxymoron of a name to "Conformist", however!
You sure sound like you enjoy your life, "Rebel". I might suggest that you change your oxymoron of a name to "Conformist", however!
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corn-shoot
- Rank 7
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- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:06 am
- Location: Entrails, SK
when you look into the toilet, ideally you should see the reflection of your own "corn-chute" So I guess it's not that much of a stretch. PS. When are you going to include your home address in your signature?I am Birddog wrote:Everytime I look back into the toilet I see you...Corn-Shootcorn-shoot wrote: I can only hope that you live in a big city where it would be hard to point you out.
xo TheDog
Perception is what counts.
Act like a professional, you'll be treated like one. Act like a sloth...well...
Thats the difference between winners and whiners.
If you think 'pull up your socks' applies to you...well if the shoe fits..
I've got a ton of them..
Pro's like 'Rebel' take a ton of hits. Although he's very biased, he's still 'that guy' that works for 'that' company that most want to work for. Funny how that is. Winners are always taking hits...thats what makes 'em great.
Act like a professional, you'll be treated like one. Act like a sloth...well...
Thats the difference between winners and whiners.
If you think 'pull up your socks' applies to you...well if the shoe fits..
I've got a ton of them..
Pro's like 'Rebel' take a ton of hits. Although he's very biased, he's still 'that guy' that works for 'that' company that most want to work for. Funny how that is. Winners are always taking hits...thats what makes 'em great.
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corn-shoot
- Rank 7
- Posts: 527
- Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 8:06 am
- Location: Entrails, SK
Are you a winner birddog?? Do you FEEL like a winner? You certainly look like a winner in my books.I am Birddog wrote:Perception is what counts.
Act like a professional, you'll be treated like one. Act like a sloth...well...
Thats the difference between winners and whiners.
If you think 'pull up your socks' applies to you...well if the shoe fits..
I've got a ton of them..
Pro's like 'Rebel' take a ton of hits. Although he's very biased, he's still 'that guy' that works for 'that' company that most want to work for. Funny how that is. Winners are always taking hits...thats what makes 'em great.
You see folks...another example of a whiner taking a hit at a winner.corn-shoot wrote: when you look into the toilet, ideally you should see the reflection of your own "corn-chute" So I guess it's not that much of a stretch. PS. When are you going to include your home address in your signature?
