Kelowna Flightcraft - isn't the place to go right now

Told Card Writer · Post by **Told Card Writer** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:19 am

Just a heads up for anyone getting a call from Kelowna Flightcraft to work the backseat.

First:
There is currently approx 20 people waiting to get upgraded and most of then have been in the backseat for 4yrs or more. Currently there is not even a glimmer of hope of being upgraded for those at the top of the list for a long time to come.

Second:
If you do take the job you will have to move to YHM (Hamilton). Because of seniority you will be getting the schedules that no one else wants. This means all the worst flights and the longest duty days.

This is all straight up and the gods honest truth. The only reason I post this is to let everyone know that KFC is no longer a place where a low time person can work his/her way up into the right seat of a jet. You are welcome to try but everyone trying to do that right now is very demoralized and looking to find a way out.

Good luck.

Loud&Dirty · Post by **Loud&Dirty** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 10:48 am

I'm near the bottom and I'm enjoying my schedule but then again I don't really get an insane number of hell runs. Even though I don't get the flights I bid, I still seem to get the days off I'm looking for. The lifestyle at this job is far better than any other flying job I've had to date. I can own a car, eat and pay rent all at the same time all while only working for half the month and living in the area that I want to live in.

When I took this job I knew it would be years before I have the chance to upgrade. I had a pretty solid chance of going to a turbine charter company but I'm happy with coming here instead. I'd rather have a monthly sked instead of living with a pager. I'd rather make more money for working less days, than making less money for working more. I'd rather be based out of Hamilton instead of Sioux Lookout.

It's true that upgrades are painfully slow but it depends on what you're looking for. Had I gone a different route it would probably still take me years and years to get on a jet anyways. But I'm still fresh and my morale is still high. Maybe 3 years from now I'll hate my job but this was my choice.

Mach .28 · Post by **Mach .28** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 11:24 am

What times does KFC look for and what is there normal payscale around right now? Are they planning on keeping the 727 longterm or are they upgrading to 2 crew Airbus'?

jimdandy · Post by **jimdandy** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 1:26 pm

Hamilton is not too bad. Its close to the falls. Lots to do. Couldn't ever be any worse pay or sked than instructing or working in the bush. What kind of time are they looking for?

YVRflyer · Post by **YVRflyer** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 4:03 pm

Flightcraft is looking for an ATPL with 1500 total and 500 multi as minimum entry requirement.

stevewilson · Post by **stevewilson** » Mon Sep 13, 2004 7:28 pm

Loud & Dirty: nothing wrong with living in Sioux Lookout and doing your time on turbine charter. Best years of my career were spent there. Glad to hear you like your gig though. It is whatever suits the person.

I personally worry about how a guy is actually going to fly after sitting in the back watching the fuel flows and reading the newspaper for 5 years, but hey, that's just me.

Loud&Dirty · Post by **Loud&Dirty** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 11:15 am

I've already done time in small places in the big part of Ontario and, you're right, there's nothing wrong with doing time at a turbine company, however, this offer came before that one did and when you don't have a job it's hard to say no. It's not a job until you're sitting in the machine on a revenue flight.

And just because someone is sitting in the back doesn't mean he/she isn't still flying other planes.

AND it's not like it's 8-10 years in the back like when 3 crew was the norm.

AND it's so much more than just reading the paper... there's the crossword too.

nite raider · Post by **nite raider** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 4:26 pm

Always fun to listen to the apparent "facts". Told Card Writter's (your spelling, not mine) "straight up and the gods honest truth" is not fact and any KF pilot can easily see it.

The KF seniority list shows about 25 S/Os in line for an upgrade. 1 has been there just under 4 years (already passed on a right seat), 11 at 3.5 years, 5 just under 3 years, and 8 less than 1 year. Only one still sitting sideways more (way more!) than 4 years and that's by his choice! As long as there are 727s, SOs will be in line for an upgrade...this is normal! Check your facts TCW.

A pilot with 1500-2000 hours of instructing or light twin flying isn't going to see the right seat of a jet in 2-4 years anywhere else. I don't remember a KF SO more than five years to get a right seat except by choice, lots got the right seat in 1-2 years. Not to say 5 years can't happen. Things are slower at most places these days.

Starting bases are awarded by by seniority and so are schedules. I don't know one new hire who didn't know this all up front. TCW, weren't you told?

I'm told that the 4 FOs are being requaled as SOs to balance staffing levels but will be still paid as FOs and fly the right seat as well. Sounds pretty reasonable. Better than a layoff or full time downgrade? In my experience, once a company downgrades, upgrades are usually cautious.

The B727 ground school instructor let pretty much all of us know that he has gone back to the military to get back to flying (more $) and sweeten up his pension. His job before KF was instructing at Selkirk on 172s. Nightflyer - be carefull about leaving the dangling "he had his reasons". Maybe there's a good explanation, and not always the wormy kind that you like to hint at.

Interesting how memories fade of all the pilots on layoff or working for companies in serious trouble. Its a market thing and this market ain't the one to be griping in...the back seat is better than no seat.

After reading this pile, its easy to see how "alltime low morale" gets going. Funny how in over 30 years of aviation, morale has always been at an alltime low (except for the first short while after an upgrade or a pay raise).

TCW and nightflyer...way to go! You are a credit to whiners everywhere!

PS - Watch for slippery brown hazards when landing in greener pastures.

Told Card Writer · Post by **Told Card Writer** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:02 pm

nite raider wrote:I don't remember a KF SO more than five years to get a right seat except by choice, lots got the right seat in 1-2 years. Not to say 5 years can't happen. Things are slower at most places these days.

nite raider (your spelling, not mine) – I call a wait period of 1 – 2yrs for an upgrade changing to a wait of 3 – 4yrs (probably more now) relevant information to anyone looking at leaving a flying job to go sit backseat of a 727.

This industry is about who is employable. Is a guy that has sat in the backseat of a 727 as employable as a person that has been flying for the same length of time? I don’t think so.

So the only benefit of sitting in the backseat is to wait and hope you can get a right seat. Well if it is taking longer and longer every year that passes for an upgrade to happen. Then what is the point of taking a backseat if you might never see the right seat. Every year that passes in the backseat the more unemployable you are to anyone else for a flying position.

The last round of layoffs that happened in March 2003, ask those SO’s that looked for other work what the industry response to there job applications were. All the ones that I know that got other work went to be SO’s at Cargojet. I THINK all of them are now FO’s, which they would not be at KF.

So in short to let people know that things are not as good as they used to be might be “whining”. At least it isn’t that nice juicy fat carrot the company will dangle in front of some low time person trying to get somewhere and doesn’t know all the facts.

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Tue Sep 14, 2004 8:05 pm

"Flightcraft is looking for an ATPL with 1500 total and 500 multi as minimum entry requirement. "

Whoa, better go bone up mah resume!

Good call nite. My guess is that you "did your time" and therefore have no sympathy for anyone who whines about having to do theirs. I feel the same way when people whine about having the sling cargo or sweep floors up north to get the right seat. I did it, so why shouldn't you have to college boi? ha ha ha

confuzed · Post by **confuzed** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:12 am

It's amazing how attitudes have changed in this industry over the years. At one time it was perfectly normal to sit in the backseat for 8-10 years before even getting a shot at an upgrade. Just like in the bush it was normal to spend 4-5 years on the dock before even getting a shot at a small Cessna. I guess these days, people think they deserve a shot at a flying job right away. Is it the training units pumping this information into their heads about getting a turbine job right away? Who knows, but that's the one thing I find to be incredibly aggravating/annoying. Up north we had a guy that felt he DESERVED the right seat of a Navajo after working in the office for six months thinking that he had paid his dues. Most of us guys who had been in the industry flying on floats for 4-5 seasons, and finally getting a twin job just rolled our eyes giving no sympathy what so ever.

Told Card Writer · Post by **Told Card Writer** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 9:58 am

No one at KF expects and upgrade but the fact is the 727 is not an economical aircraft compared to more modern aircraft. With Purolator loads increasing the usefulness of the 727 is decreasing by the year. The SO’s at KF know that the 727 will probably not be around another 8 – 10yr. So it is only a matter of time before the 727’s start to be retired. No SO wants to be left without a seat when the music stops.

I wish it was still like the good old days when at Air Canada you could do 8 – 10yrs in the backseat and know that you will get upgraded eventually. Those days are gone and if you are an SO right now you know that when the 727 goes your job goes with it. Then you are on the street having not flown for 4 -5yrs. On top of that the Grandfather clause in the Air Regs’s that kept you safe from an IFR renewal is no longer in effect. So not only are you without a job you also have to renew your IFR out of your own pocket.

These are just a few of the things running through an SO’s mind right now. So I guess SO’s feel like the pressure is on to get in the right seat before it is too late. There is enough pilots unemployed as it is right now. For an SO be looking for work with pilots who are current is not a good thing.

SO’s have a right to worry and even “whine” because for most of them time is against them. Posting this information is not “whining” it is informing anyone that is thinking of becoming an SO that the days are numbered for this position. If you take an SO job the 727 might not be around long enough for you to get into the right seat, then all the time you spent in the backseat doesn’t even count to most employers.

nite raider · Post by **nite raider** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 2:41 pm

The drivel keeps dribbling...

TCW's focus has shifted from a knock on KF to general downside advice on becoming a 727 SO, spiced up with a dash of diatribe on the economics and life expectancy of the 727.

That comment "you could do 8-10 years...and know that you will get upgraded eventually" is a good one, like there's ever been any guarantee anywhere. This career is about opportunities and luck...nothing more.

The SOs who went to CJ and are now FOs (maybe?)...pretty much luck. The opportunity was there for a bunch of us, but no guarantees...right? Who wanted to leave the comforts of home? Those who were laid off had nothing to lose and lucked out on the startup expansion. New companies like CJ usually go big at the start, but they all stagnate eventually unless the industry is on fire.

I've never heard of anyone at KF who was promised an upgrade in 1-2 years or any other timeframe. TCW's "nice fat juicy carrot the company will dangle" sure doesn't sound like the KF that I work for. Just a quick guess, but probably 6-8 upgrades from SO to FO in the last year.

We all have the right to worry...that's called human nature. But no one has any right to whine when a chosen career path doesn't pan out how they hoped...that's called life.

TCW, it's said that misery loves company but try to leave our company name out of yours. If you don't like it, maybe consider stepping aside for someone who wants to be there.

PS - nite exists in the MW dictionary as a variant of night. I couldn't find Writter.

Told Card Writer · Post by **Told Card Writer** » Wed Sep 15, 2004 11:38 pm

I don’t think anyone is bashing KF here. I have said nothing derogatory about the company. In fact it is the best company I have worked for and is quite fair to its pilots. I myself would like a long career at KF, but the way things are going an upgrade probably won’t happen before I’m laid off or the 727 are phased out. It is demoralizing when things go backwards and not forwards (downgrades)

This post has nothing to do with KF as a company. This has to do with the life expectancy of the SO position at the company.

nite raider seems to have an optimistic point of view.

I on the other hand have a more pessimistic point of view, but I’ll never say that someone else is wrong just because there opinion is different from mine.

chewsta · Post by **chewsta** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 12:43 pm

confuzed wrote: I guess these days, people think they deserve a shot at a flying job right away. Is it the training units pumping this information into their heads about getting a turbine job right away?

@ Seneca at least...

nite raider · Post by **nite raider** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 1:04 pm

Nice to hear these good comments about KF. Probably just my sensitive nature but the earlier stuff sounded like a knock...

Nightflyer's earlier post is gone. Second thoughts and reflection are a great virtue. Way to go nightflyer!

TCW - Try to focus on what you have and not what you don't have...you'll be much happier. I sincerely wish you a speedy upgrade.

A quick word on optimism and pessimism...
You can complain because roses have thorns, or you can cheer because thorns have roses.

My work here is done...

nite raider out

Told Card Writer · Post by **Told Card Writer** » Thu Sep 16, 2004 9:15 pm

good post nite raider - and some good words of wisdom.

Things could be a lot worse and let’s hope it never does.

Cheers

Disco Stu · Post by **Disco Stu** » Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:10 am

TCW, I am no grammar and spelling cop, but when you spell career, courier, not once, but twice, I have to say something.

Sorry.

skyhigh · Post by **skyhigh** » Sat Sep 18, 2004 7:28 am

hey confuzed, "4 to 5 years on the ramp???" just to get a job on a small cessna? Personally I can't stand newbies that feel that they are owed a flying gig off the bat but that sounds kinda extreme doesn't it?

Kelowna Flightcraft - isn't the place to go right now

Kelowna Flightcraft - isn't the place to go right now

YXL