Checklists, single engine day vfr jobs

Morav · Post by **Morav** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 8:43 pm

do you use one?

Crop dusting
Aerial surveying
Dropping jumpers
Touring

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:00 pm

After using a checklist intially until familure with the Aircraft I always had just a "flow" mental check list.

I recal doing recurrent training and the CP says " Make me proud and use a check list" We then spent 15 minutes digging around in the plane looking for one only to discover it neatly tucked into a mint condition POH that perhaps was only looked at once.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:06 pm

. wrote:After using a checklist intially until familure with the Aircraft I always had just a "flow" mental check list.

I recal doing recurrent training and the CP says " Make me proud and use a check list" We then spent 15 minutes digging around in the plane looking for one only to discover it neatly tucked into a mint condition POH that perhaps was only looked at once.

that's pretty accurate, I would say....did a survey job in the same airplane (and I mean THE same airplane) for 2.5 years....didn't really need the checklist after about 100hours in the thing. flew over 1500 hours...checklist just got in the way of the tried and true flow procedure. (this was a caravan....pretty simple airplane)

just curious · Post by **just curious** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 10:26 pm

ANd you'll probly get away with it for most of your career.

But, with 3 years of my life in the air, I still use a checklist for every flight every leg, on aircraft I know very very well.

I know I have the ability to forget something every day. I just don't want it to be flaps or gear.

ScudRunner · Post by **ScudRunner** » Thu Aug 02, 2007 11:17 pm

The one thing I did have taped just by the Throttles in the BN2 was a sign saying "FLAPS!" most BN2's are wrecked with people taking off without T/O flaps set. You could get away with it if you where light or had a ton of runway, something I never had.

I tried it once at YDA with a full load nose comes off the ground and it sits on the mains, about half way down the runway I hit the flaps and it popped into the air.

But ya checklist everytime these days to much stuff to remeber for the few brain cells i got left.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 12:01 am

Why not start out doing things the right way, instead of having to unlearn bad habbits down the road? Do a flow, back it up with the checklist. Everyone misses stuff from time to time.

Dash-Ate · Post by **Dash-Ate** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 4:34 am

. Norris wrote all of your checklists!!

Seriously thought it should be as much a part of your routine as the walkaround.

wallypilot · Post by **wallypilot** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 5:34 am

KAG wrote:Why not start out doing things the right way, instead of having to unlearn bad habbits down the road? Do a flow, back it up with the checklist. Everyone misses stuff from time to time.

Very true.....but when you can picture the check list in your head sometimes in simple airplanes, it's just not necessary. This depends on the person however.

For me now, flying a B350, even though my flow is fully memorized, I always back it up with a checklist.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:09 am

I go with the cockpit flow.

Checklists are for bomber pilots. They also have four engines, two pilots, a navigator, a flight engineer, a loadmaster, coffee, box lunches, multiple washrooms, etc.

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:58 am

Even flying the beav.. I still have the takeoff and landing checks taped on the dash. A flow check works super well followed by a quick cross check on the list. I have yet to leave the rudders down or flaps up on takeoff!

It's good to know the flow and have it memorized.. but it's always better to have a backup.

Keep'er safe right?

Jeremy Kent · Post by **Jeremy Kent** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:21 am

Yup... and maybe you can remember everything just tickety-boo when the sun's shining and everything's rosy, but just wait 'til something goes wrong. Incredible how quickly you forget the routine stuff. I'm always amazed practicing malfunctions after t/o in the sim how frequently the lights stay on through 10,000', for example... pretty easy to get wrapped up in a distraction and forget what you'd normally be doing without a second thought.

Use the checklist!

North Shore · Post by **North Shore** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 7:39 am

just curious: Isn't that: "Gear? Down and bolted." ??

Not to detract from what you are saying...especially in the gear area.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 8:51 am

A written check list does not forget its self...every item stays on the page.

One of the best examples of flow checks from memory biting pilots big time is a high time pilot gets a new Twin Otter on floats......but this sucker has wheels in the floats......pilot relying on his / her memory check list lands with gear selected in wrong position....

flyinphil · Post by **flyinphil** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:09 am

On a simple single like the Beaver on floats? I realize times have changed guys but come on..

My checklist was always Fuel, Fuel, Fuel, Oil, Trim, Flaps, Water Rudder.

Still remember it 25 years later and could probably be pretty close to putting my hands on everything blindfolded today.

Single engine, single pilot, memorize your checklist and know your airplane. Multi engine, multi crew, everything changes. You can't have one policy that governs all situations.

BTW, Fuel-caps/quantity, Fuel-selector, Fuel-mixture, Oil-cap,quantity,pressure....

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 9:35 am

On a simple single like the Beaver on floats? I realize times have changed guys but come on..

My checklist was always Fuel, Fuel, Fuel, Oil, Trim, Flaps, Water Rudder.

Could you have a problem using that mental check list if after years of flying a beaver on straight floats you were given one on amphibs?

By the way the real killer sometimes will be not checking for full controls free movement before opening the throttle.

Big Pistons Forever · Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:03 am

I think the reason why a lot of pilots stop using checklists is besause most of them are pretty bad. They jump all over the cockpit in no logical order and they are full of extranious bumf. This unfortunately seems to start at flying schools. The last C150 checklist I saw at one large west coast school was longer than the one on the Convair 580 I fly

Contrary to popular opinion most pilots are reasonably intellegent and quickly realize the school checklists are low value added and therfore default to no checklist ops, which IMO is unfortunate and a great example of unintended consequenses. Finally most folks who write these documents do not appear to understand the difference between checklists and do lists.

Lommer · Post by **Lommer** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 10:38 am

Big Pistons - that's bang on. I agree 100%

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:04 am

Big Pistons - that's bang on. I agree 100%

Make that 101%.

How did flight schools get to the point where their check lists are longer than some flights?

Where are the TC inspectors who oversee flight training on this issue??? Or they the problem?

flyinphil · Post by **flyinphil** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:23 am

Cat Driver wrote:
On a simple single like the Beaver on floats? I realize times have changed guys but come on..

My checklist was always Fuel, Fuel, Fuel, Oil, Trim, Flaps, Water Rudder.
Could you have a problem using that mental check list if after years of flying a beaver on straight floats you were given one on amphibs?

By the way the real killer sometimes will be not checking for full controls free movement before opening the throttle.

Suppose it would have had that been the case. It wasn't. As I stated, know your airplane.

If anyone can get in an airplane and not check and manipulate flight controls before flying, they deserve the spread of flowers they will soon receive. Some things, you just do not require a checklist for.

Simple airplanes, simple proceedures...

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:37 am

Simple airplanes, simple proceedures...

Yes, I agree.

However when doing a flight test or PPC or whatever you want to call it does your company Ops. Manual and or the company check pilot allow for not using any written check lists?

How many TC inspectors will pass you on a check ride if you do not use any written check lists?

DHQ · Post by **DHQ** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 11:41 am

I find the flow method worked better for me. I'm using checklists now (because it's company SOP) and I find things get missed more often with a checklist than with the flow. I think the reasons are:

1. With 500 things on the checklist, it's easy to lose your place and skip something.
2. When i rely on the checklist, I don't really know all the items as well.
3. If you're not careful, you can skip a checklist item just like you can skip an item in your brain.

Ideally, I'd like to do a flow and have the PNF read along on the checklist and speak up if something is wrong. But company SOPs don't allow for this.

KAG · Post by **KAG** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 1:05 pm

The ideal checklist is almost, if not eactly the same as the flow. Most people give only lip service to checklists, and thats how stuff gets missed.
If your basically doing it twice, then you stand a much better chance of catching a mistake.

flyinphil · Post by **flyinphil** » Fri Aug 03, 2007 6:15 pm

Cat Driver wrote:
Simple airplanes, simple proceedures...
Yes, I agree.

However when doing a flight test or PPC or whatever you want to call it does your company Ops. Manual and or the company check pilot allow for not using any written check lists?

How many TC inspectors will pass you on a check ride if you do not use any written check lists?

I see your point Cat and agree. If I were on a flight test, yes, I would use the required checklist.

When I flew Beavers, there was no PPC required, only training and I don't think the company even had a checklist so a flow and mental checklist was the order of the day. Certainly, any complex aircraft requires a checklist.

tofo · Post by **tofo** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 4:10 am

I gotta go with both wally and KAG on this.

wheels

single piston - no one else flies and your in it everyday, get to know your airplane and you'll be fine.

twin - flow with the list as a back up

Anphibs

realize the danger, use the list

and a gear up on a T/O well JC I've planted them hard enough that baby T/O's were growing out of the touchdown point the next day and yet the gear has always been there at the end. just do the double take on short final to make sure its land not water or vice versa that your suppose to be landing on.

Widow · Post by **Widow** » Sat Aug 04, 2007 8:54 am

If you have an incident/accident, and you missed something on you checklist that could have prevented or minimized your incident/accident ... you get pilot error. Since it seems that 99.9% of all accidents are attributed to pilot error, one must assume that complacency sets in at some point. Sounds like a good reason to always use checklists.

How often are pilots PPC'd? In the bush? What methods are used by various operators to prevent complacency in their pilots?