Instructor pay

[Cat Driver]

I have taken the liberty of using a P.M. that I received today from an Instructor to support my position that flight training is a deplorable occupation in its presnt structure.

Hello Cat,

Here are some comments I thought you'd like regarding one of your recent posts.

Cat Driver wrote:
Two things are preventing flight training form producing competent pilots.

First is the pay is far to low to attract and retain career instructors.


Amen to that. I make somewhere between 300-400 dollars, and thats on a good week. Luckily enough I still live at my parents for I have no fucking idea how some of my colleagues manage. Let alone during the winter.

If it were for the job itself, I wouldn't mind instructing for some years, even if only as a sideline. But I would like to get out of my parents' basement someday, and not because I've inherited the house.

Quote:
The second problem is far more insidious and poses the biggest problem as far as improving the quality of instructing has been posted by Hedley just now.

As long as the parasites who are in control of flight training in TC remain in power there is really no hope for improvement.

So when you next look at a TC flight training inspector you will be observing one of the reasons your profession is so hopeless.

A lot of these people go into TC with great expectations of improving the system, they either conform to the system and follow the dictates of the morons who are their bosses or they quit.


I've been lucky to end up working for a school where the owners maintain a healthy dislike for TC.

In case you've never heard of him, flight training in Quebec is managed by a charming character ******, who, from what I've seen so far would be a shoe-in at TC Pacific.

A person sufficiently agreeable that his entire department has a hard time keeping inspectors for long (last I heard there are only three FTU inspectors for the whole region) whereas no other has this issue.

He has personally issued a document named "FTU Procedures - Quebec Region" that contains "rules" not backed by anything in the CARs nor the Aeronautics Acts, with such pearls as:

-Writing a letter in every single column of the PTR document, instead of the "letter line letter" that's been used for years. (DDDDDDDD vs D------D)

-Prohibiting solo spins. (I'm trying to recall if that's only for PPL or CPL training as well)

And it goes on, there are 17 "procedures" as of writing this. Not all of them are as interesting as the first one, but they still reek of trying to legislate common sense in my book.

I'll try to get my mind off work for now.

Have a nice day

Obviously this instructor is not alone in his frustration with a disfunctional training system as is now functioning.

I have a few suggestions.

Allow people such as myself and many other high time experienced pilot / teachers to operate their schools without having to deal with the dictates of TC and their inspectors, that will cut the training flight time in half and if we stay with the average cost of getting a license the instructors would be able to earn at least three times their hourly rate.

Allow us to shit can TC's demands regarding how to teach what when and how.

Make the only criteria for the issuance of any license or rating dependent on the candidate passing a flight and oral exam to a fixed standard.

Shit can the goofy class rating so loved by TC and allow us to train our instructors to our standard while paying them a living wage.

Because from my personal observation I have been unable to tell a class 1 from a class 4 in many cases.

Cat

[Shiny Side Up]

The problem with fixing the system Cat is that it not only needs the support of those who work within it (that is to say flight instructors and those involved in flight training) but those who make use of said system as well. The latter is where no support is being gained both from the customer end of flight training or the former trainee end. When was the last time you heard of any big airline petitioning Ottawa for changes to the system so that they may eventually recieve better pilots? When was the last time you heard a group of concerned consumers voice their concerns about how TC handles the same issue?

Thus the ones mainly fighting the battle with town hall are the minority in the aviation business - the ones doing the flight training. Support is non existant from the outside. Even former instructors turn their backs with disdain as soon as they get out of it rather than use their new gained status higher up the ladder in the aviation world to improve a system that they themselves are the product of. Consumers on the other hand either are apathetic about how things are run, or actively support how they are run. Everyone wants better flight training, No one wants to pay for it.

People doing flight training are a very small fraction of the Canadian voting public, and represent a minute force in the means of changing it. From the whole Canadian public - they are far more concerned in being able to get from A to B at the lowest price. Sad to say we'll probably need some serious air disasters for the general public to know that there's a problem and only then might change come.

[Cat Driver]

Shineyside:

You are correct in your reasons for why nothing changes.

However we must not lose sight of the desire to improve the industry.

Why do you think I spend so much time and energy trying to lobby for change?

It can not be for my own monetary profit because I couldn't even pay my expenses with what I could earn as an ab-initio flight instructor in todays world.

So let me tell you why I do it.

I owe it to you and every young person in aviation to somehow make your job a better more profitable occupation where you can not only make a good living but be proud of your occupation.....remember I am at the end of my career and soon the end of my time on this planet, even if I can fly to say age 80 and still teach that is only eight years from now.

You see others hepled me to get to where I am today as a pilot, the least I can do is help others.

If as I suggested people such as me and others here who have been flying and teaching forever were allowed to operate our own schools with the only requirement being our students would have to pass the required flight and oral tests, just imagine how much more efficient our schools would be thus allowing us to triple your wages.

Not to mention our graduates would be excellent pilots.

[C-GGGQ]

we just had the "new and improved" PTR's come in. only difference is the font is smaller and they made it 100% bilingual everywhere even in the lessons chart where everything has the french equivalent written beside it. and wow is that a shitty wage, thats about 7.50 an hour maybe (if instructors worked normal 40 hour weeks) thats just criminal.

[good_idea]

[/quote]
Shit can the goofy class rating so loved by TC and allow us to train our instructors to our standard while paying them a living wage.

Because from my personal observation I have been unable to tell a class 1 from a class 4 in many cases.

Cat[/quote]

I totally agree with your point on the class system. How can TC asses and instructors capability on flight test performance alone. If I wanted my flight test record to be perfect I would reject half of my students after a couple of flights... I know that they are going to be hard work but at the end they still need to meet a specific standard.

The class 1& 2 at the school I work at is basiclly a class 1 & 2because they have been doing it for a while and they are on good terms with TC... but not too much experience in my view... no multi rating, no IFR, ... in my opinion no forward potential for most of their students... is their quality of training any better? When upgrading to class 3, I would have to send my students with them for a review flight... so they should all pass right?...lol

[Cat Driver]

The class 1& 2 at the school I work at is basiclly a class 1 & 2 because they have been doing it for a while and they are on good terms with TC...

It is all about attitude.

With the proper subservient attitude and showing the proper amount of fear of the TC Inspector an instructor is pretty well guaranteed a pass, except for the times when said Inspector has to show a fail just for the sake of looking like they actually know something and pretending to make it look fair.

The system as now controlled by TC is hopeless and getting worse, my advice to you is get out as fast as you can before you become as innefficient as the system requires you to be.

Can you imagine me attempting to pass an instructor ride, interview in the Pacific Region?

By the way back to the pay issue, unless I can make between four hundred to a thousand dollars a day teaching flying I wouldn't even get in my car to drive to the airport.

[MichaelP]

I take it from the swear words that there is considerable anger out there!
I only swear when I am really really angry!

Once upon a time I took it upon myself to write to COPA about instructor pay and how it is in contravention of the employment laws of Canada.
COPA forwarded my e-mail to ATAC!
ATAC is against instructors having a decent income...
All of a sudden I was being spoken of as a pariah in the industry at an airport users meeting!

I spoke to our local big cheese from ATAC who told me they had an agreement with the government that instructing is a special case...
Canadian flight schools could not compete if instructors were paid a proper wage...

I talked to the employment department...
They gave me the forms to file a complaint against my employer...
Can you imagine what my future prospects would have been after I did that?

[Cat Driver]

ATAC is a difficult organazation to get an answer from Michael.

I sent this e-mail last thursday and no answer yet.

Glenn K Priestley
Vice President
Fixed Wing Air Taxi, and Flight Training
Air Transport Association of Canada
255 Albert Street
Suite 1100
Ottawa, Ontario
K1P 6A9
Tel: 613-233-7727 extension 309
Fax: 613-230-8648
http://www.atac.ca



For many years the sea plane rating has required five take-offs and landings solo to acquire the rating.

For many years I and many others in flight training have tried to get this requirement changed to the requirement of a flight and oral test by a designated flight test examiner.

It has been many years since I have worked in Canada as a pilot, having been forced to work overseas due to TCCA in the Pacific Region having denied me the right to teach flying in Canada.

However I am about to retire from flying overseas and am involved in a new project that will require us to purchase a new Husky amphibian float plane and I would like to use it for giving bush pilot training and float plane ratings. However this requirement for five take-offs and landings will require the airplane be insured to reflect the requirements of five solo take-offs and landings for the students resulting in an insurance premium to expensive to even consider insuring it for sea plane rating training.

I have in the past attempted to get this requirement changed through Jim Dow in TCCA in Ottawa and through my Regional TCCA office, I was unable to even get a intelligent response never mind any indication that they were willing to consider making the change from solo to a check ride.

My reason for writing to you is due to a discussion taking place on Avcanada in the flight training forum where I see that TC is still attempting to penalize instructors who they think are still riding in the airplane as safety pilot and signing it out as solo.

If this requirement is to remain in place I personally will not be to inconvenienced as I can just use the airplane privately registered and teach outside of TCCA's area of regulation and just teach advanced flight training to licensed pilots with float plane ratings. As both you and Jim Dow are aware I personally do not even need a valid pilots license to give this kind of training, I would effectively be just another consultant.

I will be posting this e-mail to you on Avcanada for the perusal of the members and readers of Avcanada and we will with much anticipation await your reply to this issue.

Please feel free to discuss this with Jim Dow and possibly include his opinion if he has one in your answer.

Looking forward to your thoughts on this issue.

. .

290 Deer Lane

Nanaimo B.C.

[MichaelP]

I believe that ATAC is not an organisation that operates in the best interests of the people employed in this industry and that it's purpose is to further the employers interests.

I did not send my e-mail to ATAC, I sent it to COPA who I believed had our interests in mind.

The fact that COPA forwarded the e-mail I sent to them to ATAC was without my intent.
I was in fact supremely annoyed that COPA did this.

COPA sold me down the river so to speak, and created a huge potential problem for me.

ATAC's principals appear to be in favour of keeping the status quo with instructors being paid paupers wages for long duty hours.

Like with the small commercial operators, this low pay policy means the Canadian aviation at this level is non professional.
I am sure the spate of recent accidents that has woken the TC dragon to impose the new rules on FTU's, as recently written about, has been down to young pilots unable to make safe decisions due to their hunger.

[Cat Driver]

I fully agree with you Michael.

I post here in the hope that I can at least influence the kids into understanding that the greatest obstacle in flight training is Transport Canada, with the hope they will try and circumvent TC in every way possible and bear in mind that when faced with one of TC's inspectors they are at far greater risk than if they were being approached by a street criminal.

Maybe you should consider working outside the FTU sector like I do?

[MichaelP]

Maybe you should consider working outside the FTU sector like I do?

In 2005 I went to work in the film industry: parking cars, doing security, and getting five times as much money as I got instructing.

Then I took the job in China for a little more money than here and so I had to borrow money to renew my Multi Engine Instrument rating and upgrade to Class 2.

I suppose I'm lost...
I've been asked many times to do a Class 1 ride... Maybe someday if I can afford it.

[Cat Driver]

I've already talked to TC about it...

Can you not operate outside of TC's dictates, or do you need a FTU OC?

[MichaelP]

I need an OC.

But I have a different sort of relationship with TC... I know the inspectors and I'd rather work with them than complain about what goes on...

I once took one to task for a procedure that was against TC's own approved FT Manual. He agreed.

If like you I find it too onerous a task then I too will disappear.

I used to have a good relationship with the CAA, but that was another place and another time, in a country with less regulations and lower taxes!

[Cat Driver]

But I have a different sort of relationship with TC... I know the inspectors and I'd rather work with them than complain about what goes on...

I also had that same relationship for almost fifty years.

Then one day I was faced with a situation where I had no chioce but to attempt to get TC to reign in one of their maverick inspectors......

......I now understand clearly just how truly morally corrupt TC really is at the top.....

.....good luck and watch your back....remember you are at far greater risk with TC than you would be with common street criminals.

Michael, if I were stating a falsehood how long do you think it would take TC's lawyers to have a go at me?

Nothing would please more than have the opportunity to defend my statement in a court of law regarding the level of risk one faces with TC.

It would be a news media dream and Nowzek, Preuss and their legal department know it..

Anyhow all the best.

[Shiny Side Up]

However I am about to retire from flying overseas and am involved in a new project that will require us to purchase a new Husky amphibian float plane and I would like to use it for giving bush pilot training and float plane ratings. However this requirement for five take-offs and landings will require the airplane be insured to reflect the requirements of five solo take-offs and landings for the students resulting in an insurance premium to expensive to even consider insuring it for sea plane rating training.

A little off the topic here, but just out of curiosity Cat, if TC isn't going to cooperate on this matter to make it workable. Is there possibility of dealing with the insurance company on this matter? I mean if those we elect to govern us and regulate such things as insurance companies to we all get a fair shake, it then falls to us to deal with things ourselves. TC isn't going to change its requirement, there might be the possiblity of convincing an insurance broker (however unlikely, we're at the archetypal rock and hardplace here) that the students you turn loose solo are as safe as when they're with an instructor. Possibly with your own inhouse testing program - a student doesn't get to do their 5 splash and dashes until you possibly have your own designated examiner have a look at them, one of course that you might have to get them to approve of... and you see how this might be a long and onerus process, but not one without possiblity.

[Hedley]

It has been my unfortunate experience over the years that COPA does not do a very good job of representing pilots or owners in Canada. I wouldn't waste much time, effort or money on them. They seem to consider themselves a private sector extension of Transport.

On the other hand, I have been a member of AOPA for many years. They are a very effective lobby group. If you have to choose who to give your money to, I would choose AOPA over COPA. If nothing else, AOPA gives you that neat airport directory and a (usually) worthwhile monthly magazine, in addition to their other services (lien searches, 337's, de-registrations, etc).

P.S. Instructing is like farming. How long you can do it depends upon how much money you have when you start!

[good_idea]

The class 1& 2 at the school I work at is basiclly a class 1 & 2 because they have been doing it for a while and they are on good terms with TC...

It is all about attitude.

With the proper subservient attitude and showing the proper amount of fear of the TC Inspector an instructor is pretty well guaranteed a pass, except for the times when said Inspector has to show a fail just for the sake of looking like they actually know something and pretending to make it look fair.

The system as now controlled by TC is hopeless and getting worse, my advice to you is get out as fast as you can before you become as innefficient as the system requires you to be.

Can you imagine me attempting to pass an instructor ride, interview in the Pacific Region?

By the way back to the pay issue, unless I can make between four hundred to a thousand dollars a day teaching flying I wouldn't even get in my car to drive to the airport.

Cat!!! I wish the pay was that good! Instructing is definitely all about attitude and taking care of your students.
Since finishing my training and working for a very good wage for a year or so to build up some savings, my bank account has been raped now. I start work at 8am and sometimes go right till midnight and walk away with between $150-200 at best. It is horrible pay.
The good thing is I'm young and somewhat single. If I was married and had kids I would have serious family issues, not to mention problems putting food on the table. I certainly do not dislike instructing. I enjoy meeting new people and seeing them progress. Personally I think that instructors are getting taken advantage of. The wages need to better and the only reason why they are not is because everyone needs to work and build some time and experience. Employers know this so they don't need to have overly great pay rates.

Anyways that's my two cents. I could spend all day ranting and raving about how bad it is but at the end of the day... I fly airplanes... and they pay me to do it... not bad eh?!!

Like you said in the response I will be out as soon as something better comes along. I have build about 700hrs of PIC now; I certainly won't be moving sideways.

[Cat Driver]

Cat!!! I wish the pay was that good!

That is not good pay for the importance of the task, what is more important in the making of a competent safe pilot than proper instruction?

What amazes me is that the flight training industry gets away with paying slave wages.

It is a Nenderthal mindset, just like the 703 sector of flying where operators over load and generally cut each others throats, and TC turns a blind eye.

[V1 Rotate]

While I agree with the above posts I don't quite see how TC is to blame for the poor wages. I think instructor pilots willing to work for those wages without even trying to negotiate are partly to blame as well. In today's market, instructor pilots are in enough demand that they should be able to get an equitable wage.

Another idea that I have thrown around with a few friends before is that of some sort of a "Professional Pilot's Association" Not a union but a professional association not unlike a Bar Association for lawyers or the Canadian Medical Association. Any ideas?

[Cat Driver]

I am not saying TC is to blame, however it is TC who sets the standards for flight instructors.

Therefore if a great percentage of instructors are working for slave wages would that not reflect on the quality of said instructors that are licensed by TC?

An association is a good idea, however in an industry where people come and go like snowflakes how could you form one?

There has to be something wrong with a system where licensed instructors work for wages about 1/4 of what those of us who are not licensed earn.

[TC Guy]

Hello, Cat!

I am not saying TC is to blame, however it is TC who sets the standards for flight instructors.

I don't (personally) see how setting a higher standard for Flight Instructors is going to improve the wages that are paid. In Canada, right now, there is a real lack of experienced Flight Instructors due to a employment blitz in the airline industry not seen since the early 1970's.

What would you suggest the changes be?

I (personally) do believe that Flight Instruction in this country does need to change -- to keep the talanted, career Instructors -- so that they can afford to raise a family and own a house -- but TC does not have the power to do that.

Therefore if a great percentage of instructors are working for slave wages would that not reflect on the quality of said instructors that are licensed by TC?

As a regulator, TC (and delagated Pilot Examiners) make sure that they meet the standards as published in the Flight Test Guide - Flight Instructor. As much as I would like to, I cannot (as an Inspector) tell them how much they should be paid. That is NOT my position, and should never be.

There has to be something wrong with a system where licensed instructors work for wages about 1/4 of what those of us who are not licensed earn.

Agreed.

However, TC will NEVER tell any operator how much any pilot should be paid for their services.

-Guy

[fatdumbandlazy]

The topic of instructor wages is not a new one. I don't see anything changing at any point. So to help people understand where the rate charged for the instructor goes lets break it down:
Student pays $50/hr
Instructor Wage: $25 ($25 left)
Taxes/WCB: $3 ($22 left)
Rampie/Secretary/CFI salary : $5 ($17 left)
Hangar/Facilty Rent/Lease: $5 ($12 left)
Utilities: $5 ($7 left)
Promotion: $2 ($5 left)

If the instructor receives a base pay, then the $5 left will probably all go to them in a slow month. Not to mention the other fixed costs. An argument can be made for my numbers here but I think I covered most of the expences of running a school.

So then I guess the solution is to charge the students more to learn to fly so instructors can be paid more. But like whenever the prices go up for a good or service then it becomes less accessable to people and fewer people will choose to learn to fly. So any increase in pay will then be balanced out by less flying which will result in lower pay.

The real disconnect here is who is to blame for the poor instructor wages; it is the customer who wants to pay the least for any good. Look too Europe for proof. Many flight schools, and instructors for that matter, are doing very well because the cost of learning to fly in Europe is prohibitive.

It's very easy to point the finger at the person siging the cheque for the reason it's so small but before you point your finger look at the bigger picture. Maybe it's time to move on from this endless and pointless discussion and get a job outside of flying.

[Cat Driver]

It's very easy to point the finger at the person siging the cheque for the reason it's so small but before you point your finger look at the bigger picture. Maybe it's time to move on from this endless and pointless discussion and get a job outside of flying.

For many instructors getting a job outside of flying would at least allow them to earn a liveable wage.

The breakdown of the fifty dollars is quite well outlined and could be solved very easily.

Get rid of the requirement of needing a FTU OC in Canada and allow flight instructors to teach students as a one person operation, if the student meets the flight test standards that should be sufficient.

Those who want to hold a FTU OC would still be welcome to it.

[Cat Driver]

Hows life treating you at puzzle palace these days TC Guy?

It should be interesting to see what happens at 800 Burrard if and when I start doing flight training for the Greeks in the Vancouver Region.

I wonder if Dave Nowzek and a few of his minions will try and figure out another scheme to put pressure on my employers to get rid of me?

I wouldn't be at all surprized if they do because they succeded before so there is every reason to believe they will try it again.

I wish the Mafia were in charge of this region so we would have some protection from these goons.

[fatdumbandlazy]

If we have a flight training system that has some FTU OC holders and some non FTU OC holders then we will probably see a 2-Tiered flight training system establish itself in Canada.

In recient discussions with my GA inspector they said that one thing they are condsidering is eliminating the need to hold a FTU OC for private and recreational flight training. Anything beyond a PPL and then the school needs to have a FTU OC.

With only FTU OC holders being able to provide the "advanced" training the cost to the consumer for those programs will most certainly increase. Of course there will have to be a number of non FTU OC holders operating before this can happen. Hopefully the operator has enough sense at that point to pass some of that on to the employees.

Personally I don't see any advantage to not holding a FTU OC. Maybe the fact that that you are not technically a commercial operation with reduced insurance and maintenance requirements might save the owner money but I'm not sure we'll see those benefits passed on to the consumer or employee. All the while with reduced maintenance and insurance requirements the risk is passed on to the consumer and the employee. It has been my experience in this industry that individuals, not just operators, who look for cheaper ways to operate typically don't pass the savings on to others.

But lets say the operator does lower costs and passes the lower prices to the consumer. Now because their prices are lower a demand for their product will increase. That increased demand will most certainly come from FTU OC holder customers seeking a lower price for rentals, etc. At that point can a FTU OC holder compete? If more schools give up the ability to teach the "advanced" programs does that not hurt everybody?