We had a new guy come into our school 2 weeks ago..private pilot going commercial. I had teh "joy" of checking him out. The kid was good...and he knew it. After the flight we booked to start a night rating. While we were doing the instrument work he started to get really cocky. "can we do something a little harder," "My dad works for Cathay, he already taught me this".....he wasn't even doing above average on the basic stuff...decided to put it to the kid. We just happened to be in the aerobat so i moved onto unusual attitudes...started with a spin...went onto inverted flight...kid couldn't handle it "Ah...you do it" was the response the first time as hands were raised off the controls to the ceiling" Wholly shit" was teh follow up. Decided that was enough and headed back...teh kid never said anything on the way back....booked the rest of his fligths with a different instructor.

Turns out the kid did his license through a scholarship with cadets over the summer...my chief informed me that lots of cadets leave the course thinking they just graduated from Top Gun.

You guys think I was out of line to shake him up a little?
Any advice or other experiences with cadets or cocky pilots/students?

The kid was good

he wasn't even doing above average on the basic stuff

Want to reconcile those two statements first?

You obviously went too far, since you didn't accomplish anything with the kid. I would say the question is should I have foreseen his reaction. And I would answer yes to that myself. Scaring your students in that fashion on purpose is not wise, since it usually never has any effect. I think you had the right idea to show him something he couldn't handle, but nothing that extreme.

One day I was in the sim with a student working on his night rating. He told me he couldn't understand how anyone could become confused or disoriented when flying on instruments. So I started vectoring him around, got him to do a climbing turn when I failed the vacuum pump on him. Slowly the AI started to topple, and the HI started to turn incorrectly. He quickly lost his situational awareness and the whole thing turned into a spiral until the sim crashed. It had the desired effect because HE put HIMSELF into the spiral. He quickly learnt to respect instrument flying.

ahramin wrote:

The kid was good

he wasn't even doing above average on the basic stuff

Want to reconcile those two statements first?

Sorry for the confusion. Ever had a good student that just isn't all there on a flight but thinks they are doing as well as they normally do. Not being interested in the easy stuff made him perform poorly...

RSC I think you are definatly right on this one. Looking back on the situation I lost my Professional Composure on this one

What is the best way to go from here? You guys think I should approach the student and explain what I was trying to make him realize or just go with it and hope the other instructor does better?

Killer.

I answered your question without first reading the facts. You showed that little bastard who's the boss. Period. I am too a Private Pilot going on Commercial, but I know my current limitations and respect my instructors, because they know more than me and because they are dedicated individuals who are there to help me. Being cocky gets you nowhere, I don't care who daddy works for. Reaching the standards is not usually a problem, but attitude seems to be these days, especially those Air Cadets. I am not an instructor, so I don't know how I would react to such a type of student, maybe it was the best thing for you that he went for another instructor.

T01

I agree a bad attitude can't be accepted, if you start to think the basics are below you, you'll @#$! things up when it comes to hard stuff. If he can't handle having to do stuff he knows how to do already and listening to someone else, hows he going to do as an F/O? I also did my PPL through cadets, and i know this guy, he tried to race me on a x-country, landed at an airport that was closed by NOTAM, also the next person that flew the airplane noticed that it was a half quart below the min oil line. THere were a few people on course with bad attitudes, but most were pretty good.

You were right to give the guy a hard go at the lesson. Usually requires one or two hard lessons to bring some of the air cadets into line.. You might have tried stepping up in smaller steps instead of jumping to full aerobatics. BUT regardless, how did the debriefing go? Did you sit him down afterward and explain why you gave him those manuevers, did you tell him his attitude sucks? IF you didnt your lesson would not have been learned by your student he just thinks your a hardcase.

Cheers


Apache

There was no debrief...he 'remembered' that he had to leave right away...tried to get a little briefing in but no avail. I hate it when students leave without you debriefing them..whats the point of the lesson? Some times its best to brief in the plane once you shut down but in this case I thought it would be best to brief in teh briefing room downstairs...no dice though...Mavrick was in a rush

This guy's attitude problems most likely flow from his faulty beliefs about his father's employment giving him some vicarious expertise; not from being a cadet. I would not have thrown a bunch of difficult stuff at him or tried to scare him. Rather, very clearly spell out for him the performance standards for each flight sequence and then point out his deviations from the ideal in a very matter of fact manner.

Generally, the cadets doing their private licences on a scholorship are fairly high functioning and self-confident kids. All have taken various levels of ground school at their Squadrons and previous summer camps, are A-B students in school, went through a very competetive selection process to get the course, and two thirds of them already have a glider pilot licence. Most are not going to be like your average joe walking in off the street.

That said, there will always be a few loose cannons that make it through the system.

Did the cadet program myself...most of the cadets are dedicated and hard working...I guess after going through a pretty hard selection process and then being the top out of those that actually selected can make someone think that they are above everyone else in the industry...definately met quite a few kids that are cokcy and just happen to have parents in airline positions...oh well; we'll see how great they are when their attitude get them the type of recommendations noone likes

Cockey students are a pain to deal with, if they think they know it all they will kill temselves out there.

You gotta show then that they dont know it all, maybe inverted flight under the hood seems like alot, but showing him that there is sooooooo much that he doesnt know is great. Good on you.

People are different.

Some people are too timid and need encouragement to take additional risks, to attain goals which are within their ability.

Other people have no morbid fear of death and need to be politely but firmly whacked. Some people, after being whacked, realize that perhaps they don't know everything. However, other people, after being whacked make excuses as to why they failed - it's generally always someone else's fault. These people you should stay as far away from as you can, because it's only a matter of time until they make the front page of the paper.

As an instructor, it is up to you, to figure out the best way to whack an over-confident student. Just like a surgeon, there is going to be some cutting involved, but try to keep the length of the incision down. No need to lop off an arm or leg.

We all run into these types of students once and a while, they just need to be entered into the EEP (Ego Extraction Program).

You did the right thing by taking him down a few notches

cheers

Used to run into this(God syndrome)sorry guys, with Seneca grads. All the time. Haven't met one lately, so maybe that trend is a thing of the past.

Killer Klown wrote:You guys think I was out of line to shake him up a little?
Any advice or other experiences with cadets or cocky pilots/students?

Isn't this what we call "The new parent generation"? You didn't even spank him, why are you so worried?

He went to a new instructor, so why do you care anymore??

PS. You pissed him off in our small industry.. Hope you didn't have your sights on Cathay because little boi has probably destroyed any chance of you ever getting on board with them..

Doc wrote:Used to run into this(God syndrome)sorry guys, with Seneca grads. All the time. Haven't met one lately, so maybe that trend is a thing of the past.

heh im there now, and some still have it

I feel your pain with the Cadet thing. Some are great, but some are nearly as cocky as Seneca grads .

I had one Cadet grad, same level as yours, who couldn't hold altitude and began tapping the altimeter. The funniest thing was that he muttered, "gyros must be out". Felt like saying, "yeah, that might account for your crappy heading control, but not your making me airsick with your lack of altitude control." It seemed impossible that he was not as good as he thought. Of course, I didn't antagonize him, and he felt a little stupid when I politely asked him if he was sure about the altimeter was a gyro instrument. I reinforced the point on subsequent flights with instrument questions during the walkaround and taxiing.

However, as far as challenging a guy like that goes, I began shortening the flight test limitations as he got better. His ego was satisfied, because he was being held to a higher standard, and I didn't lose a student. Try imposing more strict standards if you want to challenge a student. Having said that, I had to laugh when I read your story! Good on ya!

I must admit to wanting to bring a student or 2 "down a notch" in that type of way :evil: BUT.....I've just found with the more challenging "know it all" students, to just keep at it with the honest tough criticism, and not make it personal........sometimes easier said than done :D

I like the cocky student. If they think they are really that good....get them to prove it!! make them sweat a bit.

examples.

Give them a forced approach with an aileron failure

a circuit with only trim and rudder

steep turn at 60 degrees

rudder failure in on a crosswind landing

or depending if you want your plane back, send them solo in 40 kt wind.

If they can pull it all off...maybe they have a right to be cocky, either way dosnt make it easyier to teach them.

4hrstovegas:
If he were sitting in my plane, I'd have busted his fingers for tapping on an instrument while making excuses, but then that always was a peeve of mine. Tough to see how low you are at night with some kids KFC residue all over the face of the gauge. Remember, a shitty workman blames his tools.

I would have punched your jaw loose if you tried that shit on me. You think he was paying you for that kind of treatment?? Sure, the student might have been cocky, but let him scare himself (with you onboard) by making his own mistakes. Let him put himself into a spiral dive...let him put himself into a stall. All he is going to take away from the flight you did with him is that you were a friggin prick. If he had made a mistake himself, he would have remembered it.
What does your CFI think of this treatment?

Wilbur wrote:This guy's attitude problems most likely flow from his faulty beliefs about his father's employment giving him some vicarious expertise; not from being a cadet.

I dunno, every one I ever met, with a couple exceptions, were real F-ing cocky jackasses that'll probably end up getting themselves killed unless they smarten up.

I got my license through cadets. There were 30 of us on course and yes, 3 of the guys were super cocky..... but we're not all like that trust me!!

and I think that you did the right thing with that cocky brat. It's one thing to know you're pretty good and be proud of that, while working hard to stay a good pilot but its another thing to be so proud that you think you're perfect. People like that die young.