Anyone here gone the corporate route instead of the airlines for a career?
Any regrets?
Corporate vs. Airline
Moderators: North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, I WAS Birddog
No regrets.
I enjoy the challenge, and I enjoy the variety of places that corporate aviation takes me. We are treated well, and our bosses genuinely believe that we are an asset to the company. Their attitude toward maintenance is "We are rich, and we don't want to die in a plane crash, especially one caused by poor maintenance", so everything works on our aircraft, all the time. I fly 300 hours a year, and I'm home most nights - the aircraft owners use the aircraft so that they can be home with their families at the end of a business day.
Pay is decent all the way through - It isn't the 200k I'd be making after 30 years at an airline, but it also sure as hell isn't the 39k I'd be making for the first couple of years either.
The company I work for is in a growth industry; they are worth over a billion dollars, and they have made it pretty clear that my job is a secure one, at least as secure as anything is in aviation, and life.
The corporate aviation niche is a pretty small one, and I have made some great friends (and contacts) in the past 2 1/2 years that I have been flying corporate. You know, just in case...
I enjoy the challenge, and I enjoy the variety of places that corporate aviation takes me. We are treated well, and our bosses genuinely believe that we are an asset to the company. Their attitude toward maintenance is "We are rich, and we don't want to die in a plane crash, especially one caused by poor maintenance", so everything works on our aircraft, all the time. I fly 300 hours a year, and I'm home most nights - the aircraft owners use the aircraft so that they can be home with their families at the end of a business day.
Pay is decent all the way through - It isn't the 200k I'd be making after 30 years at an airline, but it also sure as hell isn't the 39k I'd be making for the first couple of years either.
The company I work for is in a growth industry; they are worth over a billion dollars, and they have made it pretty clear that my job is a secure one, at least as secure as anything is in aviation, and life.
The corporate aviation niche is a pretty small one, and I have made some great friends (and contacts) in the past 2 1/2 years that I have been flying corporate. You know, just in case...
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Security aside...as security is non exsistant in aviation.
Flying for an airline is a lot like driving a bus on he same routes day after day.
Corporate flying at least lets you visit different air terminals...
Flying for an airline is a lot like driving a bus on he same routes day after day.
Corporate flying at least lets you visit different air terminals...
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
I'll let you know! I am just getting into it as we speak. I think it varies widely, depending on the flight department you get into. If you can find one that will give you a bit of lifestyle to go along with the fancy equipment you'll be set!!!
"Hell, I'll fly up your ass if the money's right!"
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
Orlando Jones - Say It Isn't So
They are long-winded and boring, but I hope they give some idea of what it's like to fly corporate.
2 months in:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?p=109228
6 months in:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?p=152148
2 months in:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?p=109228
6 months in:
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopic.php?p=152148
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bald seagull
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- Joined: Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:59 pm
Just like any job, there is the good, bad and ugly. The airlines seem to be the most stable if you like driving a bus, A very good bus but none the less a bus. Corperate can be a dream job for the right company or it can be a nightmare. All depends on who in the higher echelons of the company pull the strings. I remember reading an article in Professional Pilot magazine where they profiled an operator in the Far East with a Falcon 900 EX and the crews spent in excess of 200 days per year away from home. Some bosses can be very demanding and inconsiderate. Then there are those who respect a pilots homelife and those corperate jobs are a dream. Best look at the turnover. If there are pilots who have spent a lifetime with the corperate flight department. it mst be a good one. The same applies to airlines. How many lifers does Air Canada and Westjet have? Usually a bunch. Now air cargo is a different kettle of fish. The FBO always parks you in the darkest reaches of the ramp, far away fron the genteel folk. The hide the popcorn machine because they know you are going to make a meal of it. They turn on the bright lights so the freight dogs will be driven to the darker reaches of the lobby because they know freight dogs do not do well in bright lights. Pilots in coveralls seeping on the sofa does their persona a lot of good.
So ake your pick.
So ake your pick.
The average pilot, despite the somewhat swaggering exterior, is very much capable of such feelings as love, affection, intimacy and caring.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
These feelings just don't involve anyone else.
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hawker driver
- Rank 5
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- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:49 pm
I think I have found the best of both world.
I fly for a Fractional company. We work one week on, one week off. Fly to some nice places and we operate like an airline. Our company has about 2000 share owners so if one or two have some money problems the others keep my job secure.
The company operates about 150 aircraft and has 630 pilots.
I fly between 600 to 700 hours per year. The pay starts in first year about 40K and can reach about 90K in 8 years. When our union contract is finally signed we can expect a top pay about 125K at about 10 Years.
They hours are long ( 14 hour duty days) for 8 days in a row then you have a full 7 off where nobody calls you, no pager, no standby, just time off to go and do what you want. Just check in with dispatch the night before you start work to see where they are going to send you.
You commute on company time, not on your time off and always have a ticket in your had so you can't be bumped by someone jump seating. You can live almost anywhere you want ( atleast when I started now you have a list of domiciles to chose from).
No waiting on pax since they know that if they are late more then 30 minutes without calling the aircraft can be pulled from their trip and sent somewhere else if it is needed. They then have to wait for another aircraft.
The only problem is that it is in the US and so unless you have the work permits it is hard to get in. There are about 6 of us Canadians working there now.
The down side: Having to listen to how great America and Americans are all the time
I fly for a Fractional company. We work one week on, one week off. Fly to some nice places and we operate like an airline. Our company has about 2000 share owners so if one or two have some money problems the others keep my job secure.
The company operates about 150 aircraft and has 630 pilots.
I fly between 600 to 700 hours per year. The pay starts in first year about 40K and can reach about 90K in 8 years. When our union contract is finally signed we can expect a top pay about 125K at about 10 Years.
They hours are long ( 14 hour duty days) for 8 days in a row then you have a full 7 off where nobody calls you, no pager, no standby, just time off to go and do what you want. Just check in with dispatch the night before you start work to see where they are going to send you.
You commute on company time, not on your time off and always have a ticket in your had so you can't be bumped by someone jump seating. You can live almost anywhere you want ( atleast when I started now you have a list of domiciles to chose from).
No waiting on pax since they know that if they are late more then 30 minutes without calling the aircraft can be pulled from their trip and sent somewhere else if it is needed. They then have to wait for another aircraft.
The only problem is that it is in the US and so unless you have the work permits it is hard to get in. There are about 6 of us Canadians working there now.
The down side: Having to listen to how great America and Americans are all the time
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The Other Kind
- Rank 4
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- Joined: Sat Mar 25, 2006 5:40 pm
Aaaahhh, ya, OK....No waiting on pax since they know that if they are late more then 30 minutes without calling the aircraft can be pulled from their trip and sent somewhere else if it is needed. They then have to wait for another aircraft.
Back out on that road again
Turn this beast into the wind
There are those that break and bend
I'm the other kind
Turn this beast into the wind
There are those that break and bend
I'm the other kind
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hawker driver
- Rank 5
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- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:49 pm
I can see you don't beleive me about the pax being late.
In my last 9 years there I had late pax about 5 or 6 times and that was only because they were stuck in traffic and on their way.
If they don't show within 15 minutes of departure time our dispatch/owner service department is on the phone calling them to remind them about being late and that it was possible that the aircraft will be pulled.
( that is written in their contracts with the company )
We get about 4 trips assigned to us each day and if "Owner A" is late 2 hours then the aircraft will be late for "Owner B" two hours. Rather then diserviceing "Owner B" we will take the aircraft to pick up "Owner B" since he was not late then if we have duty time go back for "Owner A".
There is no reason "Owner B" should be late because of "Owner A" being inconsiderate.
It takes a little while to train the Owners but when their flight is cancelled because they were late for departure they get the message really quickly.
If I am scheduled to land in SFO at 13.5 hours duty time and the pax are late 1 hour in BOS I don't take off on a 5 hour flight since I know I will be 30 minutes over duty time when I land.
We have guys turn around out of line for takeoff since the delays would put them over 14 hours duty time and cause an FAA violation.
This is why I said it works kind of like an airline. AC or West Jet don't wait for you just because your meeting ran late and neither do we unless it does not interfer with another flight or duty time of the crew.
In my last 9 years there I had late pax about 5 or 6 times and that was only because they were stuck in traffic and on their way.
If they don't show within 15 minutes of departure time our dispatch/owner service department is on the phone calling them to remind them about being late and that it was possible that the aircraft will be pulled.
( that is written in their contracts with the company )
We get about 4 trips assigned to us each day and if "Owner A" is late 2 hours then the aircraft will be late for "Owner B" two hours. Rather then diserviceing "Owner B" we will take the aircraft to pick up "Owner B" since he was not late then if we have duty time go back for "Owner A".
There is no reason "Owner B" should be late because of "Owner A" being inconsiderate.
It takes a little while to train the Owners but when their flight is cancelled because they were late for departure they get the message really quickly.
If I am scheduled to land in SFO at 13.5 hours duty time and the pax are late 1 hour in BOS I don't take off on a 5 hour flight since I know I will be 30 minutes over duty time when I land.
We have guys turn around out of line for takeoff since the delays would put them over 14 hours duty time and cause an FAA violation.
This is why I said it works kind of like an airline. AC or West Jet don't wait for you just because your meeting ran late and neither do we unless it does not interfer with another flight or duty time of the crew.
Ahhh the fractionals. I am glad it works for you but it doens't work for everyone. I have spent many hours on an FBO couch and I have heard my share of fractional pilots bitch about issues with the "contract" and about the company they work for.
I guess it is a pilot thing, the grass is always greener, somewhere.
Corporate, Airline, Medevac, Air Taxi. They all have certain appeal but that appeal boils down to personal preferance.
I guess it is a pilot thing, the grass is always greener, somewhere.
Corporate, Airline, Medevac, Air Taxi. They all have certain appeal but that appeal boils down to personal preferance.
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hawker driver
- Rank 5
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:49 pm
With Netjets new contract which just came out their pay and bennies are pulling guys from the airlines. Here is brakedown of their new pay offer from the company which they still have to vote on.
I don't think too many of them are bitching about pay and work days but you are right there will always be guys bitching.
First year new hire on the Beechjet as an FO you start at $56,875 per year. Most of the guys there say add $15,000 to these numbers for the holiday pay/ early start pay/ over 12hours duty pay etc...
So you can see the airlines aren't the only place to make some good money and have a nice QOL.
The first block of numbers is for the 7 days on and 7 OFF schedule. the other numbers are for extra work days like 15 per month or 18 days work per month.
7?&7 Base Wage Table:
PIC.... .F/O.....F/O Over 40K lbs.
1 $87,500........1 $56,875 $65,000
2 $90,563 .......2 $58,866 $67,275
3 $93,732 .......3 $63,738 $69,630
4 $97,013 .......4 $65,969 $72,067
5 $100,408 .....5 $68,278 $74,589
6 $103,923 .....6 $72,746 $77,200
7 $107,560 .....7 $75,292 $79,902
8 $111,324 .....8 $77,174 $82,698
9 $115,221 .....9 $79,104 $85,593
10 $119,254 ....10 $81,081 $88,588
11 $123,427
12 $127,747
13 $132,219
14 $136,846
Base pay prior to OT, Holiday, Ext Days
CLASS 1-3 Pay
15 Day Flex Base Wage Table:
PIC..... F/O...../F/O Greater Than 40K lbs
1 $96,250 .........1 $62,563 $71,500
2 $99,619 .........2 $64,752 $74,003
3 $103,105 ........3 $70,112 $76,593
4 $106,714 ........4 $72,566 $79,273
5 $110,449 ........5 $75,105 $82,048
6 $114,315 ........6 $80,020 $84,920
7 $118,316 ........7 $82,821 $87,892
8 $122,457 ........8 $84,892 $90,968
9 $126,743 ........9 $87,014 $94,152
10 $131,179 ......10 $89,189 $97,447
11 $135,770
12 $140,522
13 $145,440
14 $150,531
Base pay only...
18 Day Fixed Base Wage Tables:
PIC..... F/O..... F/O Greater Than 40K lbs
1 $106,444 .......1 $69,188 $79,073
2 $110,169 .......2 $71,610 $81,840
3 $114,025 .......3 $77,537 $84,704
4 $118,016 .......4 $80,251 $87,669
5 $122,147 .......5 $83,060 $90,738
6 $126,422 .......6 $88,495 $93,913
7 $130,847 .......7 $91,593 $97,200
8 $135,426 .......8 $93,882 $100,602
9 $140,166 .......9 $96,229 $104,123
10 $145,072 ......10 $98,635 $107,768
11 $150,149
12 $155,405
13 $160,844
14 $166,473
Base pay only.
I don't think too many of them are bitching about pay and work days but you are right there will always be guys bitching.
First year new hire on the Beechjet as an FO you start at $56,875 per year. Most of the guys there say add $15,000 to these numbers for the holiday pay/ early start pay/ over 12hours duty pay etc...
So you can see the airlines aren't the only place to make some good money and have a nice QOL.
The first block of numbers is for the 7 days on and 7 OFF schedule. the other numbers are for extra work days like 15 per month or 18 days work per month.
7?&7 Base Wage Table:
PIC.... .F/O.....F/O Over 40K lbs.
1 $87,500........1 $56,875 $65,000
2 $90,563 .......2 $58,866 $67,275
3 $93,732 .......3 $63,738 $69,630
4 $97,013 .......4 $65,969 $72,067
5 $100,408 .....5 $68,278 $74,589
6 $103,923 .....6 $72,746 $77,200
7 $107,560 .....7 $75,292 $79,902
8 $111,324 .....8 $77,174 $82,698
9 $115,221 .....9 $79,104 $85,593
10 $119,254 ....10 $81,081 $88,588
11 $123,427
12 $127,747
13 $132,219
14 $136,846
Base pay prior to OT, Holiday, Ext Days
CLASS 1-3 Pay
15 Day Flex Base Wage Table:
PIC..... F/O...../F/O Greater Than 40K lbs
1 $96,250 .........1 $62,563 $71,500
2 $99,619 .........2 $64,752 $74,003
3 $103,105 ........3 $70,112 $76,593
4 $106,714 ........4 $72,566 $79,273
5 $110,449 ........5 $75,105 $82,048
6 $114,315 ........6 $80,020 $84,920
7 $118,316 ........7 $82,821 $87,892
8 $122,457 ........8 $84,892 $90,968
9 $126,743 ........9 $87,014 $94,152
10 $131,179 ......10 $89,189 $97,447
11 $135,770
12 $140,522
13 $145,440
14 $150,531
Base pay only...
18 Day Fixed Base Wage Tables:
PIC..... F/O..... F/O Greater Than 40K lbs
1 $106,444 .......1 $69,188 $79,073
2 $110,169 .......2 $71,610 $81,840
3 $114,025 .......3 $77,537 $84,704
4 $118,016 .......4 $80,251 $87,669
5 $122,147 .......5 $83,060 $90,738
6 $126,422 .......6 $88,495 $93,913
7 $130,847 .......7 $91,593 $97,200
8 $135,426 .......8 $93,882 $100,602
9 $140,166 .......9 $96,229 $104,123
10 $145,072 ......10 $98,635 $107,768
11 $150,149
12 $155,405
13 $160,844
14 $166,473
Base pay only.
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frontside_air
- Rank 2
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- Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 9:34 am
- Location: on someone else's vacation
i'm guessing you mean from the majors, not too hard to appeal to some disgrunted 5yr colgan f/o working 25 days and commuting the other 5 :phawker driver wrote:With Netjets new contract which just came out their pay and bennies are pulling guys from the airlines.
congrats on the new TA. how is equipment assignment determined for new hires? do those salary schedules for >40k lbs count for the beechjet, 125, u-boat, xls, etc as well? are the 4000s online yet?First year new hire on the Beechjet as an FO you start at $56,875 per year. Most of the guys there say add $15,000 to these numbers for the holiday pay/ early start pay/ over 12hours duty pay etc...
So you can see the airlines aren't the only place to make some good money and have a nice QOL.
7?&7 Base Wage Table:
PIC.... .F/O.....F/O Over 40K lbs.
those numbers look pretty good, hard to go wrong as long as the domicile thing works for you. any idea what the qol/pay is like at XO?
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hawker driver
- Rank 5
- Posts: 308
- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:49 pm
frontside_air wrote:congrats on the new TA. how is equipment assignment determined for new hires? do those salary schedules for >40k lbs count for the beechjet, 125, u-boat, xls, etc as well? are the 4000s online yet?
those numbers look pretty good, hard to go wrong as long as the domicile thing works for you. any idea what the qol/pay is like at XO?
I Don't work for Netjets but we belong to the same union. We hope to have a similar pay scale as they do when our contract is finally signed. We have the same negociation team working for us so they won't settle for much less.
As far as I know about their aircaft assignment, it is where they need you. You might get a Beechjet FO position or maybe a Falcom 2000 FO position in that case you would start at the higher >40K lbs aircraft pay scale all other start at the lower FO pay scale which isn't bad. The Gulfstreams and BBJ's are at another scale not listed.
I think they are offering 100 cities as bases in the contact so you can pretty much live anywhere.
The best part about their contract is that they raised the bar for all the corporate pilots out there and others have been seeing their pay increase to keep up with NetJets.
It is hard for a charter company to pay $45,000 per year for a Hawker Captain on call all the time when a Netjets Hawker Captain is making $95,000 on the same aircraft with a schedule.
Believe it or not they are expecting a close vote on the contract since the company wants an 8 year agreement and a lot of guys are worried about being locked in for that long.
As for XOjet I heard some good and some bad things about them. If you are flightinfo.com just do a search on the message board. I am sure you will find lots of info on them
How much "bus" time do you have again?Security aside...as security is non exsistant in aviation.
Flying for an airline is a lot like driving a bus on he same routes day after day.
Corporate flying at least lets you visit different air terminals...
Here's the view from the lame ass airline world at FL390 north of Taiwan. Sunrise looking east towards Japan and then looking north west at the picture that was painted. Maybe you get this everyday at 500' in your PBY. I don't know as I've never been there but I sure as hell won't sh*t all over it just because. Why do you continually insist on sh*tting all over my parade when you have never been in it?
You can interpret that however you would like.
That's weird, because with the bidding system implemented at the airline I work for I can fly to the same city if I choose, or never see the same city twice in a block month. Unfortunately, I do have to see YYZ every day.Cat Driver wrote: Flying for an airline is a lot like driving a bus on he same routes day after day.
Corporate flying at least lets you visit different air terminals...
When I was in corporate down south, I only saw 4 different airports as these were the locations that the owners had business or reason to visit. So I was much more of a "bus driver" doing corporate work than I am as an airline dude.
Every gig is different so you can't generalize by saying airline is like this or corporate is like that.
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hawker driver
- Rank 5
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- Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:49 pm
It is a little complicated but to put it simply my American Dad had sex with my Canadian Mom and that how I started.Sumup wrote:Hawker driver how did you get your start in the States?
My flying started in Canada flying cheques and mail then when I had the experience I conveted my licenses to American. It is now alot easier now with the agreement signed between TC and the FAA last summer.
Now it is just a Medical and pay $100 application fee plus a 35 question test on American Reg's and then in 30 to 90 days you have the American ATPL or Commerical if you are converting that.
It is the same for the Americans converting to Canadian licenses. Just pay your money to the government and all is done.
Go to the TC web site and search license conversion to FAA and all the info will be there.
Don't you also have to write a exam for your IFR?hawker driver wrote:It is a little complicated but to put it simply my American Dad had sex with my Canadian Mom and that how I started.Sumup wrote:Hawker driver how did you get your start in the States?
My flying started in Canada flying cheques and mail then when I had the experience I conveted my licenses to American. It is now alot easier now with the agreement signed between TC and the FAA last summer.
Now it is just a Medical and pay $100 application fee plus a 35 question test on American Reg's and then in 30 to 90 days you have the American ATPL or Commerical if you are converting that.
It is the same for the Americans converting to Canadian licenses. Just pay your money to the government and all is done.
Go to the TC web site and search license conversion to FAA and all the info will be there.
Lurch
Take my love
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You cannot take the sky from me
Take my land
Take me where I cannot stand
I don't care
I'm still free
You cannot take the sky from me
