Beech 18 Turboliner - Information required!

floatplane · Post by **floatplane** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:18 am

Hi guys!

I have a question about a very unique aircraft, hope you can help me.

I am searching information about the Beech 18 Turboliner.

Found out that the company, which converted the standard Beech 18
with Turbines and streched it exists no longer, the STC was sold to a company in Switzerland - also no longer existing...

Does anybody have any details about this version or who
the current STC holder is?

Are any aircrafts of this type still flying as a passenger version?
(I know some freight dogs are still using it)

Any input is welcome!
(also personal experiences made with this version!)

Thank you very much

Sebastian

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:17 pm

My understanding was that the extra weight of all the gear lost one passenger seat. Plus, the engines are Garretts. I think they are pretty rare.

Beech did some tricycle gear B18s when it was still building them - you might give them a call.

The Garretts would make it a handful on floats, I'll bet (thinking of getting the props on the locks for shutdown). Plus, you are supposed to hand-bomb the props 30 blades on shutdown in order to prevent shaft bow - I doubt if you could get to them on floats? I have never seen one on floats.

nacho · Post by **nacho** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:45 pm

I just learned something now.. We pull the prop but to help cool down and protect fuel nozzles.(AS I was told )

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:20 pm

I think both occurs - the spinning purges the unburnt fuel from the can, protecting the nozzles, but the main reason is preventing shaft bow. Apparently the carbon labyrinth seals will wear quickly and if you pull the props religiously, can save something like $75,000 on overhaul. Remember the turbine section turns over about 40 times for each prop revolution so you suck a lot of cool air through the engine and it will cool symmetrically and save your seals.

There really is a good idea behind all those annoying comments "...are you winding up the rubber band?" Gee, haven't heard that one before, what a card.

RVR12 · Post by **RVR12** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:23 am

I must have missed the part where he says it's a float plane... some guys still fly them on wheels, not tooo many though...

Ballsssssss · Post by **Ballsssssss** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:08 pm

Here's some TPE331 info for anyone who's interested:

Actually, the shaft-bow thing is a myth. There are two carbon seals in the engine and neither are labryinth style. The carbon seals seal axially not radially so a bow in the shaft would not affect them in any matter. The aft seal gets changed at hot section and are included in the Honeywel hot section kit (aka cheap). According to the Garrett Genie at Honeywell Academy the main reason for turning the props on shutdown is to purge the excess fuel from the burner can...especially those little dribbles on the nozzles that coke up and make your fist stage nozzle look like it's been cut with a plasma cutter..... that's what makes for and expensive OH or CAM if you scrap out 1st and 2nd stage turbine wheels.

A lot of guys are now operating Garretts on float planes (DHC3) and love them. Though I know at least one guy who likes to burn starters out instead of hand bombing the prop after shutdown.

nacho · Post by **nacho** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:21 pm

Interesting !

I am going to Scottsdale, AZ next week and will pay a visit to my good friend John Phoenix @ Executive Aircraft Maintenance.( those guys are all ex Honeywell)
I am printing this page to bring with me, I like the challenge of learning the engine that keeps my ass safe. I am sure he will agree with some and disagree with others.
It's good to hear what everyone else knows about the subject.
Thanks

onceacop · Post by **onceacop** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:29 pm

Here is one up in AK thats seen better days. I can give you quardinates and she could be all yours for the lowly sum of 3 hours in a 212.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:44 pm

Well, when I took my 690 type at FlightSafety, we learned all about shaft bow and labyrinth seals. I then picked up and imported the first of my company's numerous 690s and we had the Garrett guy spend a week with us training our mechanics how to change an engine and rig one. He demonstrated shaft bow on the engine that we had removed (damaged turbine wheel). We shut the engine down and left her pointed into wind, and in 30 minutes you could hear this horrible scraping when you turned the prop. Shaft bow is only a problem for quick turns coz if you let the engine cool completely, the problem does not occur. As for labyrinth seals, I only repeated what he said about them and overhaul costs. I'm a pilot - they say its going to lower overhaul costs, I do it.

Doesn't this picture show a labyrinth seal right before the first compressor wheel?

http://www.aircraftenginedesign.com/TPE331pics.html

All my old books are in storage, so maybe someone on here has a set?

He also bet our guys a steak dinner that they couldn't change out a Garrett and rig it in less than 3 days - our guys all got the dinners, they did it in one. Maybe he was just used to US AMEs!

Anyway, if I am full of sh*t, I will readily admit it, but I need some references!

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:07 pm

Ahhh, the 690B...a true delight to fly and a pilots airplane.

Ballsssssss · Post by **Ballsssssss** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:41 am

I have all the books. I have spent a month at Honeywell training on the engine. I have also worked in a heavy maintenance shop for a lengthy period of time. There are a lot of misconceptions about the Garrett that have been passed around and down for a long time. The instructor I had at the academy has been working with the TPE for years and years and was a wealth of knowledge on the technical details of the engine. He could explain to me WHY it did what it did.... so I tend to believe someone who can give me a technical reason for something instead of someone who just says "this is the way it is and I don't know why".

Anyway, if you want to know anything about the engine talk to Don Murdoch at TSI in Mississauga. He is the authority on them as far as I am concerned.

As for the labyrinth seal..... The two carbon seals in the engine are for sure NOT labyrinth seals. Most turbine engines make a lot of scraping sounds after they cool down. It's just a symptom of clearances. They are built to have certain clearances at operating temperatures and sometimes those clearances close up after shutdown. I have built TPE's that won't even turn by hand after assembly. I have also seen this same thing on J85's and RR 250's.

Ballsssssss · Post by **Ballsssssss** » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:43 am

There may be the remains of a Tri-Beech at the airport in Redditt, ON. It was there for years and years and I am not sure if it has been moved or sold in the 5 or 6 years since I have been there.

floatplane · Post by **floatplane** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:00 am

Hi everyone!

in deed, I was thinking about putting this version on floats,
but found no information about people who have done it before.

Found no information about the standard turboliner, nor about this plane on floats...

Any comments about the idea to put this plane on floats?

Can anybody give me some figures what might cost it to certify that
plane as floatplane? (maybe with other engines)

At airliners.net I found the information that the Turboliner can transport
up to 14 passengers, is that true?

Probably with the weight of floats you can deduct two seats...remaining 12, compared with the standard Beech 18 there are 4 passenger seats more available...

Is that realistic? Any other comments?

Thanks

Sebastian

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 9:34 am

Is seems that to put all that effort into an 'orphan' might be a fun project but similar to importing a car from Russia - no parts, no tech support, no mechanics etc.

Why not just get an Otter (choose your engine) and you'll have your seats and the worst problem will be supporting the capital?

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 10:55 am

How do you plan on rotating the outboard prop when just docked (shutdown) ? Might be neat to see but a twin beech on floats with 985's is still a handful. No sense adding to the work load with turbines.
Get a Texas Otter
http://www.texasturbines.com/otter/ttci_o.htm

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 12:29 pm

Or better yet.. Get one of them Kodiaks!!

http://www.questaircraft.com/index.php? ... ountry.php

I hear they're currently doing the testing with it on floats.

app flap · Post by **app flap** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 2:50 pm

anybody here think the kodiak might be a good alternative to the caravan, or a good addition to a caravan fleet?

rated for SEIFR, 750HP, 4 bladed prop, ten seats and around 2200lbs less of a MTOW. you think it would be comparable to what the caravan can do in regards to invest/operating costs versus return?

Rowdy · Post by **Rowdy** » Wed Oct 24, 2007 5:18 pm

I think the kodiak will fit in the "too small for a twin otter, and too big for a 206" Offstrip market. The STOL capabilities are pretty good. Look at the size of the friggen flaps!!!

Could also be a contender for competition with the 'van!

Ballsssssss · Post by **Ballsssssss** » Sun Nov 04, 2007 4:18 am

Sure is a sexy looking little thing...nice cruise speed. What's the opinion on icing performance?

Siddley Hawker · Post by **Siddley Hawker** » Mon Nov 05, 2007 1:52 pm

I believe Aircraft Industries in St. Jean sur Richelieu converted a B-18 to PT6's in the mid-1960's. Wheeler operated it for a while, on wheels, after ACI took them over around 1965 or so. I worked for Wheeler in 1967, so I'll see if I can rustle up some info on it. In the meantime, see if anyone on the French forum knows Al Falby. Al used to be the Chief Pilot at Wheeler back then, before he went to the Quebec Government on the Canso, so he'd certainly be able to help you.

In the meantime take a look at this nifty little conversion.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 10:32 pm

I seem to recall Pratt and Whitney stuck a PT6 in the nose of an RCAF Beech 18/C45 Expediter as a flying testbed. Also, the government of B.C. put PT-6's in a Beech 18, calling it the Westwind or something like that.
Cat should remember that one.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 12:56 am

I'll betcha those engines in the 3-engine Beech are those geared Lycomings. Talk about jumping out of the frying pan into the fire!

black hole · Post by **black hole** » Sun Nov 25, 2007 5:49 pm

I think that if someone put a pair of Walter turbines on a streched 18 on floats and got rid of all the wheel gear and every other piece of junk that is not needed for this opperation it would make a pretty decent plane.

Stubby · Post by **Stubby** » Wed Nov 28, 2007 7:43 am

Keewatin air used to have one of each. I flew the Tradewind, CF BCF, it is now beside the Aviation Museum in Victoria. 2 dash 20's on her. Dual Janitrols for heat, ( in case one quit). Lots of range, did Baker Lake direct to Winnipeg one night. I believe the Bennet ? government did the conversion. Cant tell you when. The Westwind was the tail dragger version, I heard it was written off in a crosswind at Eskimo point Nu. The Tradewind was nosewheel, and conventional tail.

Beech 18 Turboliner - Information required!

Beech 18 Turboliner - Information required!

Thanks your postings!

BEECH 18 Conversion to Tradewind & Westwind