In Response to Racist Posts...

DMH · Post by **DMH** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:18 am

I read a discussion thread posted on the AVCanada website that came across my desk several days ago and was outraged. I visited the site and was infinitely outraged by the number of similar posts that belittled, disrespected and reviled indigenous peoples residing in Canada.

I wondered how anyone could be so absolutely ignorant of fact and basic human decency. The things I have read over the course of the weekend have disgusted me. Why would anyone think degrading a less fortunate person or peoples is okay???

My first reaction was to file complaint with the site webmaster and subsequent moderators. So, I did. The thread was subsequently removed. I also forwarded the ugly discussion thread in question on to the multitude of contacts in my address book for their review, and encouraged them to contact the AVCanada website as well. In addition, I filed complaint with Google AdSense to report the basic user violations I was party to…I then sat back and thought “What else can I do to ensure this does not continue?” I reviewed new legislation via the Department of Justice Canada pertaining to internet racism (and make no mistake, that is what most of the comments concerning First Peoples on this website are), and entertained the idea of having the site shut down all together. But what would that do??? It would make those people who already harbour unfounded hate towards my people far more angry, it would likely justify for them, further ignorance. It would add fuel to an already out of control fire. I then wondered what the responsible parties would feel like if they knew their words were viewed by their Supervisors, family members, those communities they fly in and out of every day…or how they would feel knowing that children…indigenous children who at this point do not understand hate and it’s many faces…saw these words and wondered why? “Why don’t these people like me?” “What is wrong with me?” Would these racists feel good, superior knowing they made a child cry because they had taught them a terrible lesson about the world? Does one gain satisfaction from hurting others in such a way..? So many questions have arose from this one, seemingly inconsequential item. I thought these men and women would be ashamed…but maybe not. Some people who propagate hate our proud of their false sense of superiority.

So, I continued to think long and hard on what more I would do to stop the bullshit on this website, and came up with what you are reading right now. Words are the only weapon I’ll use to ask those people, and they know who they are, to stop. Stop showing the world (under the guise of anonymity no less!) how ugly you are. If you cannot and feel you must belittle people you do not truly know...then please, stand by your convictions! Let’s not make such rude and vile comments under the veil of some silly user name. If you believe that the things you are writing, the comments you are making to be true…then stand up! Be a man or woman and attach your name to it. If you cannot do this, then you have all but admitted your ignorance…and if this is the case, you desperately need to educate yourself. Crack a book and learn something about the country you are living in that isn’t based on heresay and 2nd hand information. See the social issues you’re party to for what they are…and why they are.

So, for those of you out there who believe that I, or any other indigenous person is stupid, lazy, dirty, useless, unwilling to work, educate myself, etc…then please, let me and everyone else on this forum know how you feel. But please, let us also know who you are.

niss · Post by **niss** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:29 am

Hi Deanna,

My name is Niss Feiner, I live in Barrie, Ontario.

I do not harbour such stereotypes of the natives in our community. However, I do have a problem with people who go on campaigns to ruin public forums based on the ramblings of a few of its members.

Avcanada is not a racist site and its moderators try to control that. Theirfor contacting Google Adsense was unjust and unneccisary.

Defend your point of view by all means, but dont burn down the playground because of a bully there.

Airtids · Post by **Airtids** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:38 am

Stop showing the world (under the guise of anonymity no less!) how ugly you are. If you cannot and feel you must belittle people you do not truly know...then please, stand by your convictions! Let’s not make such rude and vile comments under the veil of some silly user name. If you believe that the things you are writing, the comments you are making to be true…then stand up! Be a man or woman and attach your name to it. If you cannot do this, then you have all but admitted your ignorance…and if this is the case, you desperately need to educate yourself. Crack a book and learn something

Yup. Not just in this regard, but in regards to too much of the CRAP on Avcanada. Anonymity and a lack of accountability are, in my opinion, the biggest drawback to this site and it detracts from the usefulness this community could (and occasionally does) offer.

Interstingly, as I found out after a cowardly personal attack last year, folks here aren't as anonymous as they think they are...

Robin Tidswell

Rockie · Post by **Rockie** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:58 am

I won't in any way defend true racism Deanna, but how much of what you read could be attributed to frustatrion over the conduct of First Nations people in places like Caledonia and others? I think all of us could look in the mirror a little more critically.

DMH · Post by **DMH** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:17 pm

First, thank you for the introduction Niss. I appreciate the response, and the fact that you provided one in a thoughtful and respectful manner.

The myriad of comments I have read over the course of several days have dated back months and months. The racially ignorant rants have come from across the country by countless users. It is more than a case of ‘a bully.’ Based on that fact, it would appear the comments exceed the definition of a ‘few ramblings.’ I would like to point out that when individuals sign on to utilize public forums such as AVCanada, they agree to a certain form of conduct that is clearly not exercised when they degrade another religion, or culture whether it be indigenous , Asian, Arabic, etc. I have zero tolerance for such things and am disappointed that there are far too many out there who evidently do. Because the comments may not affect the majority in a personal manner, it still does not make it okay in even the slightest instance.

I enjoy public forums…if they are operated, maintained and used responsibly. I have no issue with public forums in general, but I do have a problem with forums where racial prejudice is condoned on any level and subsequently ruins the experience for others participating. I stand by my convictions which entail both my words and actions. When one feels strongly enough about injustices, they should be encouraged to act upon them despite the potential of someone having to take their ball home.

niss · Post by **niss** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:21 pm

The thing is its not condoned, its specifically outlined as wrong in the rules. The moderators are only human, each can not police everything on this forum and may or may not have their own biases. The official policy of this forum is anti-racism. I think when people post racist material they are in violation of this boards rules but this board is not in violation of any law/policy.

Niss

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:44 pm

Deanna....

That was a shocking first post compared to most of "quality" stuff we post around here.

Thank you for that reality check. All too often we hide behind the anonimity of user names, giving little regard for how posts are read.

I have hard time with racism having lived abroad for the past eight years. I have never been the victim of it, having learned much about my host countries and their people, I get offended when they get slammed on Avcanada or the other boards I participate on. It's hurtful. It's inaccurate and often, it's just ignorant.

Do me a favour. Stick around and participate in our discussions. You sound like you can carry yourself in a good debate.

Hedley · Post by **Hedley** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:45 pm

What I personally have a problem with is politically-correct censorship.

Some people find some facts unpleasant, and they don't want those facts discussed. I think most of use would agree that in this case, the cure is probably worse than the disease.

For example, I'm a white male. Let's say someone (Harvard medical school) does a study, and finds that Hispanic males, on average, have longer penises than white males.

This makes me, a white male, feel bad about my penis, and thus myself.

Would it then be reasonable for me to claim that discussing such truth was racist and outrageous, even if it was the truth, because it made me feel bad?

DMH · Post by **DMH** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:47 pm

niss wrote:The official policy of this forum is anti-racism. I think when people post racist material they are in violation of this boards rules but this board is not in violation of any law/policy.

Niss

I apologize Niss, however the pertinence of this point is lost to me...The policy of the site is 'anit-racist,' and when individuals using the site post racially prejudice opinions, ideas, etc...and it is not removed, but left to fester...the people responsible for governing the site are not responsible??? Allowing these items to remain on the site is tantamount to condonement in my book, which is likely why these types of threads have grown in number. Who then, is responsible if not the people left with the job of governing the site? It would appear that the governing body is in direct violation of their own stated policies...

bmc · Post by **bmc** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:54 pm

I think the self policing occurs when nobody says anything. If no one gets too cranked up over an issue, it stays. Raise the roof and threads disappear.

It would interesting to get a legal opinion of some of the posts in other threads that border on libel.

niss · Post by **niss** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:55 pm

Deanna wrote:
niss wrote:The official policy of this forum is anti-racism. I think when people post racist material they are in violation of this boards rules but this board is not in violation of any law/policy.

Niss
I apologize Niss, however the pertinence of this point is lost to me...The policy of the site is 'anit-racist,' and when individuals using the site post racially prejudice opinions, ideas, etc...and it is not removed, but left to fester...the people responsible for governing the site are not responsible??? Allowing these items to remain on the site is tantamount to condonement in my book, which is likely why these types of threads have grown in number. Who then, is responsible if not the people left with the job of governing the site? It would appear that the governing body is in direct violation of their own stated policies...

Fair enough, As Brian wrote, I think you provide a great reality check for this board. I think you should take up the grievances with the moderators. They are only human, and may be biased as well. Perhapse these mods need the occasional reminder.

Cheers!

DMH · Post by **DMH** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:10 pm

Hedley wrote:Let's say someone (Harvard medical school) does a study, and finds that Hispanic males, on average, have longer penises than white males. This makes me, a white male, feel bad about my penis, and thus myself.

Would it then be reasonable for me to claim that discussing such truth was racist and outrageous, even if it was the truth, because it made me feel bad?

I refuse to let this discussion digress with such trivialities. This is such a typical argument of black and white where there is far too much grey. So, I will say this: Your penis and it's hypothetical size have little to do with this discussion. The comments instead, attempt to railroad a serious discussion about a serious matter with a nonsensical and out of place statement geared at delegitmizing something that is affecting us all.

It is not fair to compare your pretend physical anomolies with deep-seeded and very real social issues. Ultimately, the size of a man's penis does not affect the greater population...but one individual with nothing to brag about. Comments like the ones historically posted on the AVCanada site DO affect a greater population and their struggles...and at the least DO offend some of the other users on the site.

Sulako · Post by **Sulako** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:48 pm

Nice one Deanna, you totally owned Hedley.

I think you could do wonders here if you choose to stick around. Please do.

corporate joe · Post by **corporate joe** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 1:51 pm

Ah yes, another Hedley post. You will find it is quite difficult to not get dragged down into discussions with such individuals (I can tell you that first hand). You'll also find it is quite difficult to not fall to their level during certain exchanges. There are a lot of simplistic minds posting on these boards where everything is left and right, black and white. You'll find surprising amounts of ignorance, intolerance, extremism and endless categorizing. You'll find it does not take an elaborate education to become a pilot, and unfortunately, even a wonderful industry like this one is plagued by bleak individuals. You'll also find individuals who are not even part of the industry in any way, who will come here nonetheless to post their nonsense.

You will however also find clever posts. You'll find funny stories, interesting debates, and intelligent members. You'll find people with unbelievable experiences and great stories to share. You'll find people willing to help others, in any way that they can.

I encourage and support your crusade to educate those that can not be educated; however, make sure that whatever it is you do, you do not become what it is you are trying to put an end to. What I mean by that, is that any action that you take that would generalize, and put all posters under the same banner, would in fact be another form of gross over-simplification. Remember that not all members are intolerant extremists, and whatever it is you are trying to do, should take that into consideration.

invertedattitude · Post by **invertedattitude** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:00 pm

While I 100% agree that some of the comments posted on this site (although mild compared to most) are over the line, I also feel that many times people over-react to certain comments.

People are insensitive to others needs, that's a fact of human nature, I don't care who you are, everyone is insensitive to someones needs at some time or another. Doesn't make it right however.

It also begs the question that, no-one is forcing you or anyone for that matter to read this forum. Everything on the internet is publicly available, but unlike a street sign downtown, no-one has to look at it if they choose not to.

If you're going to fight internet racial battles, I would suggest there are far bigger fish to fry than the ones on this website, not that your cause isn't a just one.

A question however, does it make me racist because I've caught in the last 4 years a member of a specific race, all different people each time, breaking into my car/friends car/friends house, now does it make me racist in that my human defense mechanism makes me suspect these people more?

I have friends of many different races, and treat them no differently one to the next, and I fully believe we should never paint with a broad brush, but you must admit that certain members of certain races within our society do little to help their cause?

I know Bill Cosby agrees with me at least.

sky's the limit · Post by **sky's the limit** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:07 pm

Deanna,

I just logged on after several days away, only to find most of a particular thread missing, the parts including numerous racist, sexist, and exclusionary remarks made by a couple posters. After reading your thread, I see why they were removed and am greatly relieved that someone from the 'outside' has taken an interest in removing this type of thing from our site.

The Moderators have done a good job over the years removing offensive posts, and offensive posters, but they cannot be everywhere at once. It's shocking to me that so many people in my industry feel the denigration of minorities in general, First Nation's People included, is ok. As you eloquently point out, it's not. The women of our industry are burdened with similar lines of thought, and I'm personally embarrassed to see that you have come here to find these types of sentiments - we are not all like that as I'm sure you understand.

The rather unfortunate conclusion to be drawn from this is that as a group, we in aviation have a long way to go in terms of inclusionary thought. Even more frightening is the fact this group generally represents a reasonably well educated and financially secure sector of the Canadian society.

I applaud you effort, welcome.

stl

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:09 pm

Good post, Corporate.

A lot of the posters here deal with indigenous people every day; their flights either go to reserves, are filled with indigenous people or are flying freight for them. I think that a few crude phrases or postings here do not reflect the attitudes of the majority of the posters here, nor the majority of the people involved in that part of the industry. I believe that Avcanada is not a racist site, does not promote hatred nor attempts to demean 'your people.' This is an aviation site that deals with every aspect of aviation.

Vandalism of aircraft was the topic of the removed post and just because the perpetrator was native does not prohibit the poster from being angry.

Crude writing, yes. Racism, no.

I second the suggestion that you stick around. Your writing is exceptional, certainly on this site and your attempts to educate are welcome.

And a note on anonymity. It definitely causes some problems, but it also allows many who might otherwise not post here to do so. I remain anonymous (at least I think I am!) because of personal reasons and the fact that maybe 10 people will post here but 3000 will look at it. I think that anonymity is only a problem if the posts cross the line, but the moderators know who we are.

bandaid · Post by **bandaid** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:52 pm

As a matter of fact I don't know who you are but I can remove posts and report offenders to someone that does. And for the member that posted the last picture for gods sake, grow up.

xsbank · Post by **xsbank** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:14 pm

Hey Bandaid, that sounds like it might have been me and I don't even know HOW to post photos!

Please clarify your comment so it doesn't stick to me.

CID · Post by **CID** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:17 pm

Deanna, I think you're overreacting. AvCanada is not a racist site and racism is not condoned just because moderators sometimes allow a discussion to play out to some resolution.

In that way it's no different than real life.

So, for those of you out there who believe that I, or any other indigenous person is stupid, lazy, dirty, useless, unwilling to work, educate myself, etc…then please, let me and everyone else on this forum know how you feel.

Such generalizations don't help anyone. Are you saying that indigenous people are not capable of being lazy or stupid?

But please, let us also know who you are.

Why?

chipmunk · Post by **chipmunk** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:18 pm

xsbank wrote:Hey Bandaid, that sounds like it might have been me and I don't even know HOW to post photos!

Please clarify your comment so it doesn't stick to me.

xs, it wasn't you, someone just posted a couple of completely unrelated, tasteless pictures and Bandaid deleted his entire post.

niss · Post by **niss** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 3:54 pm

You know what really bugs me? Anti-dentites.

If there is one thing I cant tolerate, it's intolerance.

Driving Rain · Post by **Driving Rain** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:01 pm

bandaid wrote:And for the member that posted the last picture for gods sake, grow up.

The last picture posted on AVCANADA was this one. What is sooooooo offensive about it?

Nark loves the Osprey. I thought he'd appreciate a new avatar. What's your friggin problem with that Bandaid?

DMH · Post by **DMH** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:05 pm

First and foremost, let me say ‘miigwetch’ for the feedback. I both appreciate and respect the opinions expressed. I can assure all that I have never painted any one thing, person or issue with the same brush. I take my time and think about things, hell, I think about what I’m going to say BEFORE I say it. I look at all sides of a coin and form an opinion based on numerous things…fact being an imperative.

But just for shits and giggles I’ll reiterate that I have never implied that everyone using this forum is racist. I DID however indicate that there are numerous user posts that are and if the site allowed such then they certainly could be deemed guilty by association, and let me also provide that my actions were not simply the result of one idiotic rant…and yes, anger is okay and certainly warranted in some cases. Stating anger at an individual for a particular incident is fine, stating you are angry and making it a race issue is not…and when you mention a person’s cultural background, it BECOMES a race issue whether intended or not. I guess then, that the bigger lesson to learn from this is: think before you type…better yet: re-read it before you click the send button. Or, ask yourself this question: Would I say it in front of my mother and father or in a room full of people? If the answer is no, then give your head a shake.

For those interested, here’s a few more links to a few more discussion threads that are just as bad…all this in about 5 mins. on the site’s search provider. Have I really overreacted??? I beg the question: if it were you're race, nationality or religion that were being so basely described would you not react? Would you not do what you could to see it stopped??

http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... t=reserves
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... t=reserves
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... t=reserves
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... t=reserves
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... t=reserves
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... t=reserves
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... t=reserves
http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... t=reserves

It is not a matter of a one time ‘oops.’ It is, in fact, numerous posts by numerous users over an extended period time that think this form of ‘discussion’ is acceptable. Now, how far shall we go on this..? I can probably find 50 more in the span of 10 mins.

I appreciate the words of advice concerning being careful about not allowing myself to devolve into the same Neanderthalic language that some are guilty of. I'll assure you that I cannot. It’s simply not in my person to take this back to high school. Facts are facts, or should I say: discussion threads are discussion threads…and this proof is hard to argue for any thinking of doing so.

Now, I’m fairly astute and realize that there are some individuals out there who wish to provoke and entice me into juvenile argument. Unless you have an intelligent and pertinent question or comment, don’t be offended if I do not respond. I am however, always entertained by the silly rhetoric some deem discussion.

shitdisturber · Post by **shitdisturber** » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:08 pm

In a perfect world there would be no racism; but we don't live in a perfect world, we live in this one. I can freely say that over the course of my life; I've seen people from many different cultures and races including my own acting in ways that certainly don't bring credit to their race/culture. Unfortunately if you're working in an area where the predominant embarassing behaviour is from a specific people; eventually even the best of us is going to become jaded, it's human nature. While I don't condone racism and certainly don't want to open up a thread and see it in black and white; I can understand how some people can let their attitudes slide after they've been exposed to people not at their best on a day to day basis.

Keep in mind it's a two way street. How many times have you heard indigenous people make racist remarks about caucasians/asians/african americans/ etc etc and said nothing to them about it?