Accidents

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Doc
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Accidents

#1 Post by Doc » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:50 am

Here we go again. Must be the season of the witch. We have an accident, and all the finger pointing starts. All the warm and fuzzy wishes give way to the inevitable questions. Some want to grieve. Others want to know what happened. Folks get down right ugly with each other. People are told to "shut up". Everybody blames somebody else. They blame the weather. They blame ice. They blame everybody but the guy who screwed up. Because, unless there is some failure, that's what happened. Somebody descended too low, too soon. Somebody departed with contaminated wings. Somebody didn't stop for fuel. Somebody pushed into a black hole. Then, we get a round of Transport Canada bashing. (I'm guilty of that one) More finger pointing. More on how nice a guy/girl the pilot was. How he/she would never do such a thing. Is it the training? Is it the chief pilot's fault? Then we collect the names for some sort of a "wall" somewhere?
All this goes on, and yet, we are really missing the bottom line. The "buzz" words and terms are not working. If anything, it get worse every year. Every year, the same mistakes are repeated. This year, somebody will take off in a Caravan with ice on the wings. It's happened the last two years. Why not this year? What's changed?
There is a minimum descent altitude on your approach plate. Read it. Do not go below that number.
There are approach bans. Adhere to them. They are there for a reason.
Put enough frikken fuel in your airplane to make the trip. The reserve is just that...a reserve. If your boss thinks you should use your reserve fuel for the flight, tell him to piss off. Do it.
If you fly into ice, and there is ANY doubt, turn around.
Your aircraft has a designed gross weight. Get to know it. Use it. It's a limitation.
If you are solo, make bloody sure your auto pilot works. Or, don't go.
If the weather is at limits, brief for the missed approach. Not the landing. The landing should be the surprise. Not the missed approach.
Don't let the Captain kill you.
When your co-pilot speaks...listen.
Stay away from hard approaches to limits at night. Circling limits only please. If your boss has a problem with this, have him call me.
Read the numbers on the runway.
Do not do intersection departures from northern strips.
Land and take off into wind.
If your aircraft has a snag, put it in the book.
The guys upstairs might not be the sharpest knives in the drawer, but you are the one that get to the accident site first.
Transport Canada, SMS and all the politically correct bullshit ain't going to help you. YOU are on your own. Be careful out there.
I say, PAY ATTENTION!
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#2 Post by JayVee » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:39 am

Excellent advice Doc.

I'm not sure if people read those "sticky" threads, or if they skip right past, but I would suggest adding a bit of glue to this one and leave it out for all to see.
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#3 Post by ndt » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:06 am

Don't agree with everything you have to say, but this post will be printed and put on the board. Thanks.
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#4 Post by Mitch Cronin » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:31 am

fugetaboudit
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#5 Post by onceacop » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:40 am

If you take off at an intersection there was unused available runway behind???????
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#6 Post by BTD » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:48 am

And those northern strips are only 3500' on average to start with. Its different then doing it off of say 36 in YWG where you will be on your first vector from centre while still over the runway.

The advice Doc gives is good stuff. Especially don't let your captain kill you. Sounds obvious, but REAL CRM is still not perfect in 703.

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#7 Post by BTD » Sat Oct 27, 2007 7:57 am

That being said. A lot of guys out there are really good.
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#8 Post by Mitch Cronin » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:06 am

more fugetaboudit
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#9 Post by CD » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:13 am

Mitch Cronin wrote:
onceacop wrote:If you take off at an intersection there was unsued available runway behind???????
...but that's always true, not just in the north.
It probably links back to the following lively debate (although there have been many others):

YXU, why doing intersection takeoffs?

However, it's all great advice...
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#10 Post by Troubled_Coffee » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:36 am

and lastly . . . DON'T FORGET YOUR COFFEE in the morning! :shock:
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#11 Post by xsbank » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:26 am

Doc, even with your slightly rabid style, I agree with every line. Maybe some of what you have said will rub off and stick in people's minds.

Even if you think you're having the time of your life out there (if you've been doing it longer than 4 years, likely you're not!) its still not worth getting killed over. When all the dust settles and we've finished discussing what you should not have done, you're still dead and we're not.

There is one hell of a lot of other neat things you can do with your life that have nothing to do with things with wings.

I'd like to add to the landing point - make EVERY landing a pleasant surprise. Plan every approach, VFR IFR, as if you are going to do a miss. Make sure every approach has an out. That's particularly difficult on floats, but there should be no excuse on wheels. Its only the ground that can hurt you, so stay up there until you're ready.

On any trip, if you're rushed or in a hurry, you have ALREADY added a couple of events to the chain that will lead to your accident!
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#12 Post by sky's the limit » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:04 pm

These are all salient points, but unfortunately there are many circumstances where pilots are pressured either from customers, employers or themselves to do things outside their normal operating envelope. This isn't so dangerous until it becomes habit, then the bar has been set at a different level, and once that happens, lowering it again is mightily difficult. The expectations are different, and habits are hard to break.(Look at the people who vote for Bush....:wink:)

Please heed the advice above, make your own rules, set your own limits, and above all else, stand up for yourselves in terms of safety, compensation, and work environment. It's the only way we'll make things better.

As XS says, there are many other things to live for outside of flying, that extra effort you put in rarely comes back to you in aviation.

Stay safe.

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#13 Post by Widow » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:22 pm

sky's the limit wrote:Stay safe.
Hey! That's my line! :wink:

Great thread Doc.

And if I may add, if you know someone who is facing a should I stay or should I go problem, or who is being stonewalled over a safety issue - stand up for them. Support them in their decision. Make sure they aren't blackballed as a result. Remember, it could be you next time.
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#14 Post by Rowdy » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:47 pm

Fantastic post!


If theres ever ANY doubt in your mind.. then theres no doubt at all. Get the eff out of there!
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#15 Post by ndt » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:35 pm

Unfortunately my reply was a bit obscure. On this post I agree with everything that Doc had written. It just that I do not agree with other points of view that Doc has.
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#16 Post by Doc » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:36 pm

This "rant" was brought about by just one more accident. I got really pissed off, had two beers, and just started typing.
Widow has a very good point. If somebody stands up for his right to say "NO", back him up on it.

ndt, sometimes I'll just "hang it out there". Happy to see you're thinking.
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#17 Post by trey kule » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:50 pm

Good post Doc,

Just one comment. Why is it that you stated when a co-joe speaks. listen., and did not mentione that maybe when a captain speaks, the co-joe shoud listen. Seems now adays it is all about listening to our FO's.
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#18 Post by Doc » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:36 pm

A perfect example of the sad state of the airline industry in this country can be clearly seen in the thread about the King Air crash on Oct 25. The childish immature mud slinging that occurred on this thread is a black mark on all who took part. GROW UP!

I actually edited a couple of posts made by a couple of these dimwits. Another "mod" felt he had to "lock" the thread. It boggles the mind, that such immature milk sots would be allowed to operate aircraft. Pity condoms weren't in more widespread use back when some of you were conceived.
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#19 Post by Cat Driver » Sun Oct 28, 2007 7:49 pm

It's really weird how some of these threads just end up like train wrecks.

That one sure did.
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#20 Post by Liquid Charlie » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:29 am

I like to think of the pitcock as a benevolent dictatorship. It's a team but there is a chain of command - we walk that fine line all the time and all crew members must be allowed to express themselves -- someone starts yelling -- get out of there and sort it out later -- the flight deck is no place for "heated debates" or fist fights or that matter -- as silly as that sounds I know a few people who that have been involved -- silly rabbits -- when some in the crew is uncomfortable - time to go to plan "B"

Communication is where it's at -- :smt003
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#21 Post by Doc » Mon Oct 29, 2007 8:19 am

"Uncomfortable" is one of the "touch feely" words, that I believe are getting pilots killed. Bear with me. Or, is that bare with me? On my first CRM course, the instructor was preaching letting your captain know if you were "uncomfortable" with something. I think I piped in with something along the lie of..."Screw "uncomfortable", get to the bloody point, man!" eg. the "great Master of the Airways" in the coveted "throne", or, left seat, has just descended 100 feet below his MDA, and the newly minted co-pilot states.."Captain, I'm uncomfortable with this." WELL? Now he's 200 feet below....follow me? Be assertive! Forget touch feely "buzz" words. How about "Minimums.....I say again MINIMUMS....TOO LOW"...what, hurt too many feelings? Let's communicate people! What we are doing now, obviously just isn't working.
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#22 Post by Airflow » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:01 pm

[Typically, I don't post much (just read), but I couldn't resist this thread...]

Great summation Doc!!

During my last cpl human factors course, we were dicussing PDM. I had one student who thought the material was boring because it was all common sense. So, I asked, if it was common sense, then why has the accident rate not changed much in the last 10 years?!! I just got the deer in the headlights look... :shock:

From what I see (and it's just that, my opinion), safe flying is not only a discipline but an attitude.

As for your last post, Terrace BC accident comes to mind....
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#23 Post by flyer » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:18 pm

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#24 Post by Hedley » Mon Oct 29, 2007 12:33 pm

Unfortunately, there are still many 'cowboys' around who do stupid things regularly ... most of these cowboys have 10's of thousands of hours
Beg pardon, but if these "cowboys" do "stupid things regularly" (in your very subjective opinion) how are they still alive after "10's of thousands of hours"?

According to you, they should be long dead. Hm. Something doesn't make sense here.

For some reason, I am reminded of someone who drives 100 kph in the left lane of the 401, and shakes their fist at everyone who passes them.
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#25 Post by Liquid Charlie » Mon Oct 29, 2007 1:45 pm

well Doc I can understand what u are trying to say -- I should have been more clear. My feeling is that if you are going below minimums or some such thing and you say get aggressive -- well Ya -- if you are about to auger in I certainly hope someone will get aggressive -- I am talking about during a briefing - either t/o or landing -- that's when you find out if there are any questions --- misgivings or better ideas -- by the time you slip below minimums or do something not briefed it could be too late and all the assertiveness in the world is not going to help you -- a crew has to establish it's harmony from "check in" -- SOP's are there to make a flight deck run harmoniously but having said that they are not written in stone and common sense should always prevail.

You made a reference to "difficult" approaches -- and to consider circling minimums -- what does that mean -- I have never seen a "difficult" approach yet -- complex maybe but certainly not difficult and minimums are just that and if you can't safely fly to them you have no business holding an instrument rating -- the world has changed -- TC has tried to eliminate the "go around" with their lame attempt at the new approach ban regs -- but being Canada they didn't have to balls or the common sense to follow ICAO -- why do they always diverge from the "KISS" philosophy -- it boggles the mind -- north of 60 indeed -- CRM is not "touchy feely" -- it's good airmanship -- and ironically from my observations is that, although we joke about it, the people who take it seriously are usually the ones who don't need it.
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