CollectCorp/ TC?Nav Canada

[floatingbeaver]

After reading the comments on the $55 medical fee which I do not pay, wanted to get your consensus on what you guys think of the $77.oo fee that Navcanada imposes on A/C owners, and for those of us who have an aircraft whether that one is worth paying or not. Who of you pays and who doesn't Thanks FB

[invertedattitude]

NavCanada imposes a $77 fee? Or Transport Canada

[Inverted2]

Yes NavCanada does, even if you don't fly into controlled airport and only fly VFR! RIPOFF!!

[SierraPoppa]

Yes NavCanada does, even if you don't fly into controlled airport and only fly VFR! RIPOFF!!

Use FSS for anything?

[rd1331]

$77 dollars. Common man. They give you weather, maybe if you don't pay they should make it so you can see any weather, can't file any flight plans, or anything else that has to do with navigation, ohya can't use your radio either. If costs them money to give these services, and you can't tell me that you never look the weather up, or use your radio. So stop being cheap and pay the damn 77 dollars.

[Cat Driver]

Fact .....

A few decades ago " ALL " aviation services were available with " ZERO " fees.

And to top it off we had far more and better services.

What caused us to get to here, where you pay a fee for everything?

Did your taxes go down that much?

[Inverted2]

Yes NavCanada does, even if you don't fly into controlled airport and only fly VFR! RIPOFF!!

Use FSS for anything?

Ok, in the last year I looked up some Metars and Tafs on the web, but I don't think i used 77 dollars worth!

[Hedley]

Anyone here old enough to remember the fuel excise tax? That was supposed to pay for this? But goes into general revenue instead?

Don't make me barf. I pay much more than my fair share already. I don't mind paying for what I get, but double and triple taxation is male bovine excrement.

[linecrew]

$77 dollars. (Come on) man. They give you weather, maybe if you don't pay they should make it so you can see any weather, can't file any flight plans, or anything else that has to do with navigation, ohya can't use your radio either. If costs them money to give these services, and you can't tell me that you never look the weather up, or use your radio. So stop being cheap and pay the damn 77 dollars.

If you own a classic Piper Cub (or such) with no radios that you use to go flying on obviously VFR days (not FSS/forecast needed) around the local area in uncontrolled airspace you STILL need to pay the fee. It's based only on whether you have a valid C of A because it's assumed that somehow you will use some form or other of their services.

[sigmet77]

A few decades ago " ALL " aviation services were available with " ZERO " fees.

And to top it off we had far more and better services.

Better? Really? Come on now. TC invested $0 into the ANS, the least you can acknowledge is that NC has spent on investments to move the ANS ahead. Imagine if we were still TC, we'd look like the bloody US system and that ain't pretty.

And free? Maybe GA thought it was free but Canadians paid a lot more for a lot less.

Do I think there should still be walk in briefings by FSS, sure, but when you look at the big picture the product you get today is far superior to that of pre-NC, and for $77 a year, not a bad deal.

[CFMartin]

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[canpilot]

Cat,

Right on man! I can't get into Class C because it is " Restricted due to staff shortages" Twr won't close my flight plan nor open the flight plan. I can't get a walk -in brief. On-site FSS stations are being removed at an alarming rate..

If we are paying this $77 fee, what is it going to?? Outsourcing and or downsizing?? Slot times..Also, last time I checked, alot of ATS units/ FSS treat those who are wishing to operate in their zones as anything but customers..I've actually been denied a wx brief before!!

This being said, I've had AMAZING dealings most controllers and most FSS. My hat goes out to those people!! I was on the last Manops. and FSS/ ATC for 90% of the time were absolutely awesome!

[5x5]

I'm sometimes surprised that the same folks who complain about how little people make in aviation are the same ones who complain about fees. They likely also feel that flights on the big carriers for vacations and such should be $399 to Mexico.

I don't understand how people think that we can receive more (higher salaries, more services) but pay less (no fees, low cost tickets, lower taxes).

[rd1331]

The services NavCanada provides are FAR superior to prior NavCanada services. Are they making the company more efficient yes, are they closing stations that don't need a station to do this yes. But we also have one of the best if not the best ATC system in the entire world, did you know that? Yes NavCanada trains other countries ATC specialists because we have the best system. Are they currently putting radar in the north and putting high powered pals up north to provide better safety, yes. Would that have ever happened with pre-nc, no.
They are making a much safer country to fly in. If you don't think so why don't you go fly in another country and find out how bad it is, i have. Trust me the Canadian system is FAR superior to other countries.
NavCanada charges those fees because the government doesn't give them the money that should be going to them, so if you have a problem with that go to the government and tell them to transfer the money that is due and maybe navcanada wouldn't have to charge you your $77. Until then they should charge what they need to make canada the safest country in the world to fly in, and they are.

[Hedley]

NavCanada charges those fees because the government doesn't give them the money that should be going to them

It's not our fault that NavCan negotiated poorly with the government. NavCan SHOULD get the fuel excise tax.

It's not MY fault that NavCan made a mistake, so why should I pay double taxation to compensate them for it?!

What other serious blunders is NavCan planning to make in the future, that it won't take responsibility for, either?

[Alex YCV]

Didn't NavCanada also lower the rate per KM controlled this year? Why try to collect this money and lower rates at the same time?

[the_professor]

Fact .....

A few decades ago " ALL " aviation services were available with " ZERO " fees.

And to top it off we had far more and better services.

What caused us to get to here, where you pay a fee for everything?

Did your taxes go down that much?

You bet they did Cat, and I don't care what tax bracket a person is in.

And you conveniently never mention that the *hidden* Air Transportation Tax was repealed shortly after Nav Canada came into existence.

[the_professor]

NavCanada charges those fees because the government doesn't give them the money that should be going to them

It's not our fault that NavCan negotiated poorly with the government. NavCan SHOULD get the fuel excise tax.

It's not MY fault that NavCan made a mistake, so why should I pay double taxation to compensate them for it?!

What other serious blunders is NavCan planning to make in the future, that it won't take responsibility for, either?

Hedley I know it`s difficult for you, don't be an idiot. Nav Canada was not a group of venture capitalists who bought the radar sites and `got a bad deal`. Nav Canada was created by legislation, and the goverment said `Here`s the structure you`ll operate under, now bye bye.`

To argue that they `negotitated a bad deal`is nonsensical.

[the_professor]

Didn't NavCanada also lower the rate per KM controlled this year? Why try to collect this money and lower rates at the same time?

Nav Canada is mandated *by law* to be a non-profit entity. They are also required to maintain a "stabilization account" which is used to smooth out unanticipated revenue shortfalls, i.e. post 9/11. When revenue exceeds expenses, charges are lowered.

Lowering the rate for distance-travelled charges has a greater benefit for a larger number of people; namely the flying Canadian public who actually pay for 90% of the operation of the ANS. Someone who travels often during the year benefits more from a rate drop than an equivalent registration fee decrease for an individual aircraft.

Don't kid yourself: It is not the revenue from 421s and King Airs that fund $8M radar sites up north and dual-channel fibre-optic networks, or the rest of the billion-plus dollars per year that feeds the ANS. It is the revenue from the passengers on airliners, domestic and international, that pay for most of that stuff. Likewise, they should benefit the most.

[bigfssguy]

Is it dejavu or have we seen these same arguements from the same people many times before. This fight has already been fought everyone, lets put down the slings and arrows and all go home!

[grimey]

Also, last time I checked, alot of ATS units/ FSS treat those who are wishing to operate in their zones as anything but customers..I've actually been denied a wx brief before!!

With very few exceptions, the only people trained to provide weather briefing service/weather information service are in the FICs. It's not that we're unwilling to brief you, we're unable to because we're no longer trained for it.

[the_professor]

Is it dejavu or have we seen these same arguements from the same people many times before. This fight has already been fought everyone, lets put down the slings and arrows and all go home!

Yeah, we have seen some of the same idiotic arguments before, like Hedley blaming Nav Canada because the government won't share tax revenue. Eventually I figure he'll stop barking up the wrong tree if the reality of the situation is explained enough times.

It makes no more sense to blame Nav Canada for the fuel tax than it does to blame the Shell station on your street for collecting an auto gas tax. Neither tax revenue goes where it was originally intended (for the ANS or for road repairs, respectively), but you don't see me making pointless posts on Shell's web site, because I'm smarter than that.

[CD]

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[shitdisturber]

$77 dollars. Common man. They give you weather, maybe if you don't pay they should make it so you can see any weather, can't file any flight plans, or anything else that has to do with navigation, ohya can't use your radio either. If costs them money to give these services, and you can't tell me that you never look the weather up, or use your radio. So stop being cheap and pay the damn 77 dollars.

Use of your radio has nothing to do with Nav Canada; that falls under Industry Canada which is still a government department.

[canpilot]

Grimey,

Pardon me for not explaining myself coherently. I was denied a wx. brief by someone in a FIC.