Flight School Question

[eterepekio]

At the flight school you attend or attended, did you(THE CUSTOMER) have to de-ice the airplanes before you went flying or did the school take care of that?

You as PIC are responsible to ensure that the aircraft is free of contamination before flight. No problem there. However you as the customer are entitled to a clean aircraft without the hassels of looking for brooms, de-icing fluid, squeeges, paper towel whatever.

If you rent a car from Avis, Budget, etc, they have the car ready, clean and fueled for you. Its the minimum a paying customer expects (along with a smile and good attitude which I haven't seen at most flight schools)

It's not that I'm lazy but today I got delayed 1.5 hours in the morning because of frost and a low tire which there was no maintenance guys on site to help me out. When I brought the airplane back 1 hour late (1 hour past my booking) they freaked out. If my booking is 2 hours and I spend 75% of it on the ground because the school doesn't have the fleet ready, how is that my fault?

I understand the ripple effect it has on other people's bookings, but my booking was scraped by wasting time on the ground. The delays affect everyone.

I'm not venting here just double checking that what I say makes some sort of sense. I didn't even mind the fact that I had to de-ice the airplane, it's the attitude that I see in these low time dispatchers/instructors that scares me. Maybe they are not happy with their jobs, whatever. Don't take it out on a client.

To all FTUs. You are running a business. Treat it like one and be careful who you put behind that counter, because those are the individuals representing you, choose them wisely.

Cheers and happy flying.

[BAH!!!]

Well if you want to spend $250 an hour for a 150 that can be done for you. They can even roll out a red carpet to the airplane for you. The problem is that everybody wants to rent a plane for the cheapest price they can find. This keeps every flight school in Canada on thin ice.....you get what you pay for!

[mea]

At the flight school you attend or attended, did you(THE CUSTOMER) have to de-ice the airplanes before you went flying or did the school take care of that?

I'm not venting here just double checking that what I say makes some sort of sense. I didn't even mind the fact that I had to de-ice the airplane, it's the attitude that I see in these low time dispatchers/instructors that scares me. Maybe they are not happy with their jobs, whatever. Don't take it out on a client.

To all FTUs. You are running a business. Treat it like one and be careful who you put behind that counter, because those are the individuals representing you, choose them wisely.

Understandable, unfortunate morning. Poor attitude from instr./dispatch/line crew could be irritating and truly a disappointment. but.. carefully inspecting aircrafts is part of our jobs too, as pilots.

[xsbank]

I think that there should be some support from the school, for a paying customer, lest that customer cross the ramp to the competition. If the a/c is to be used first thing in the morning, the student AND a rep from the company should be there early enough to de-ice and prepare for the first flight.

If the plane was unserviceable, perhaps you should have just told somebody and walked. If there was no one there, leave a note (or write it up, my preference) and walk. With all due respect, the fact that you were not getting any help tells me you should have just gone for coffee.

I think you need to have a word with the owner before you spend any more money there.

And BAH!, that is nonsense and utter twaddle. If you want to even have a business, you will have to put out some effort. Can't get out of bed in the morning?

[BAH!!!]

I also think its nonsense. But an instructor cant be expected to put his own bookings aside to help the 4 or 5 people get going in the morning. Thats just not his/her job. If its up to me, I'll be going flying and making some money to pay off that coffee I just bought. I'm not saying that nothing should be done the night before to try to stay ahead of the game but often you cant set it up so all 10-14 planes are good to go for 8:00. Dispatch is usually useless or busy doing books in the morning to bother helping out (8 bucks an hour). All I hear all the time is theres no money for this and no money for that (which is why there most likely isn't any line staff to help out).

All I'm trying to say i guess is if you pay a bunch of instructors and dispatchers 7 or 8 bucks an hour they aren't going to care a whole lot if its not their first week on the job. It is very unfortunate but I don't blame them.

[tired of the ground]

Does Avis come and Clean the windshield for you every morning it snows? Do they put fuel in the car every time you're running low?

I imagine if you want those things done, you would have to pay for it. I'm darn sure if you were to pay any instructor they would be happy to prep your aircraft for you.

Do I think you should have to dig it out of a snow bank? No, that's asking a little much. If they put wing covers on the aircraft, plugged it in and have brooms/de-ice for you I think they are keeping their end of the bargin.

Now for another question. Did you tell them that you were going to be late so that they could inform their other bookings or were you childish about it and didn't say anything out of spite? I imagine any school that wants your business would be more than happy to do some schedule shifting because you spent so much time getting the aircraft prepped.

You get what you pay for, and unfortunatly for the training industry, people have spoken with their wallets; Not your fault it started a long time ago. By handing you're instructor a few extra for a really good lesson, you may just get you some perks that it seems that you, or others i've met, are looking for.

[C-GGGQ]

Does Avis come and Clean the windshield for you every morning it snows? Do they put fuel in the car every time you're running low?

I imagine if you want those things done, you would have to pay for it. I'm darn sure if you were to pay any instructor they would be happy to prep your aircraft for you.

Having been a detailer for Avis/ Budget I can tell you that we have to fill up the cars every time they come back, never worked there in the winter so i can't speak for the windshield thing, but like you i would assume no. Now the customers are supposed to bring the car back full, and if it is down to an obvious level ie 3/4 or less the customer gets charged like 2.70 per litre (most people remember to fill it after the first time). On the topic of aircraft, when i was in school the aircraft were kept in the schools hangar overnight, making sure they were ready for the morning, now sometimes we couldn't get both planes in because of maintenance aircraft but then they were parked with a cover (one had wing covers one did not) and the engines were preheated by the staff in the morning so they were ready to go for the first booking.

[eterepekio]

Does Avis come and Clean the windshield for you every morning it snows? Do they put fuel in the car every time you're running low?

I imagine if you want those things done, you would have to pay for it. I'm darn sure if you were to pay any instructor they would be happy to prep your aircraft for you.

Having been a detailer for Avis/ Budget I can tell you that we have to fill up the cars every time they come back, never worked there in the winter so i can't speak for the windshield thing, but like you i would assume no. Now the customers are supposed to bring the car back full, and if it is down to an obvious level ie 3/4 or less the customer gets charged like 2.70 per litre (most people remember to fill it after the first time). On the topic of aircraft, when i was in school the aircraft were kept in the schools hangar overnight, making sure they were ready for the morning, now sometimes we couldn't get both planes in because of maintenance aircraft but then they were parked with a cover (one had wing covers one did not) and the engines were preheated by the staff in the morning so they were ready to go for the first booking.

That should answer your questions tired of the ground. BTW, I don't expect a school to meet me at airport X where I did my cross country to do my de-icing you dork, but the initial cleaning should be done.

[Dominic220]

If you're at "home base", then imo, there should be staff there to clean the aircraft. I have a fleet of 10 A/C, and within an hour and a half, unless it's frozen rain, and there's more than 1/2" of ice on it, I'll have everything in flyable condition in 1.5. It's not a hard concept to understand. Also, if you're away, and you're parked at an FBO, unless you ask for it, they won't do frack all. (Also, yes, that's heated, deiced and fueled. books... gimme another .3 and anything that wasn't done from last night will be)

[eterepekio]

If you're at "home base", then imo, there should be staff there to clean the aircraft. I have a fleet of 10 A/C, and within an hour and a half, unless it's frozen rain, and there's more than 1/2" of ice on it, I'll have everything in flyable condition in 1.5. It's not a hard concept to understand. Also, if you're away, and you're parked at an FBO, unless you ask for it, they won't do frack all. (Also, yes, that's heated, deiced and fueled. books... gimme another .3 and anything that wasn't done from last night will be)

Is your school in Southern Ontario?

[futboler14]

i find wakeing up at 5 a.m to get my buck 50 ready for a little 7 a.m flight under an inche of snow is an expereience. Getting the wing covers off is pretty much the only diffucult thing. Engine is always covered and is being heated so when the covers are off and windsheild defrosted its ready to go.

having to carry around the wing and engine covers takes up a bit of a space in a 120 lbs max baggage area, but its the price u pay to operate at about $35.00/hr for fuel.

[Dominic220]

eterepekio - ottawa. is you consider that "southern" ontario. I wouldn't. And yes, up at 0500 to get someones' plane ready because they want to go right at 0700 because that's what time we open, a bit annoying, but feh. I don't get paid to complain.

[futboler14]

eterepekio - ottawa. is you consider that "southern" ontario. I wouldn't. And yes, up at 0500 to get someones' plane ready because they want to go right at 0700 because that's what time we open, a bit annoying, but feh. I don't get paid to complain.

Sorry, i should have said that work was to fly my own plane.

But yes, i worked on the ramp also and it isnt all that bad either. Take it for what it is. I'd rather be outside on a crisp winter morning than flipping burgers at mcdicks.

[FastFlyBy]

At the flight school you attend or attended, did you(THE CUSTOMER) have to de-ice the airplanes before you went flying or did the school take care of that?

You as PIC are responsible to ensure that the aircraft is free of contamination before flight. No problem there. However you as the customer are entitled to a clean aircraft without the hassels of looking for brooms, de-icing fluid, squeeges, paper towel whatever.

Are you a casual or a career pilot?

If you're just a casual renter than disregard...

Because if you are still in career training just consider that for your first couple flying jobs it will be YOUR responsibility to arrive early and ensure the aircraft is ready to go on time. So try not to get too spoiled cus sure as hell no one else is gonna do it for you. Just something to think about.

Otherwise... At the very least they should have clean brooms and de-icing bottles ready to go. Not to mention the tires inflated.

[200hr Wonder]

As an instructor and a student I have been on both ends of the stick, I alway try and help, plus we have a hanger so life is a bit easy. So give a little take a little. I mean even when I was a student and the old guy down the ramp wanted fuel, I was more than happy to give him a hand pushing his plane over to the pumps or what ever. At my school we have rampies but I will fuel, thankfully we do not need to de-ice as we have a hanger. So yeah really just need to find a better school.

On the other hand in Ottawa what are you doing with no hanger?!?!

[Dominic220]

well, we have a hanger, just maintenence style. what're we doing without one? I dunno... talk to YOW management. apparently (from what I've been told, 3rd+ hand knowledge) they won't let us build any more hangerage... which seems a little bizzare, considering Sanders is expanding their building.

[trancemania]

Thats why I take it after the first flight.

I was the first booked on a 150 a couple weeks ago.

After finding out I had to De-Ice the plance,I just booked another plane that someone else had already cleaned.

[hazatude]

Winter is a foul bitch.

[scm]

You should have just switched planes or cancelled - there isn't always someone around to pressurize tires early in the morning.

Most places will have the snow swept off in the mornings time permitting, and it shouldnt take any more than 1/2 hour to remove the wing/engine covers and get the plane ready. Deicing takes a little while but that can be done prior to checking the docs and signing out.

[Charlie]

Hi eterepekio,

Don't mind me for budging in on the conversation. Although I would think your feeling is quite normal, seeing that you are paying good money for what you are buying...

but... in my opinion, what happened to you is a great learning experience!

Career pilot, or casual pilot, this experience is a MUST for learning.

If you're a casual pilot, you not only have learned the basics of taking care of your own plane (whether you already own one, or you may own one later), you'll also learned how you can do it better next time.

If you're a career pilot, on top of the basics of making sure your airplane is "cleaned", you have just started connecting those neurons in your brain, in preparation to be a good aircraft commander.

Imagine the next time you are renting from the same operator, the same slot in the same time of the day and year, the night before you'd be thinking of what you need to do next morning. The night before, you'll probably pay a quick visit to the school, ask where to find deicing fluid if you need it next morning, ask how to contact the engineer if there were tire problems, or even ask to learn where to get the nitrogen and how to fill the tires yourself.

The truth is... imaging you're flying for a small charter company as a Captain, say a King Air or a Twin Otter out of Yellowknife for instance, that's probably what you'll be doing the night before an early morning flight... even if it's a short flight.

You would go to the hangar the night before, make sure the "herman nelson" heaters are working and have fuelled so you can heat up the aircraft in the monring, check the weather forecast for the next morning and decide whether you want to keep your aircraft inside the hangar or leave it outside.

If snow is forecasted for next morning, you may think about the possibility of wanting to leave the aircraft outside overnight, plugged in, with all the covers on, so to prevent the problem of pulling a warm aircraft out of the hangar into falling snow and watch them melt onto your warm control surfaces and refreeze.

And knowing the engineer won't be starting his work before your early flight, you would probably want to learn from him before hand, how to perform all those minor fixes, within the law of course.

If you really think about it, it's not the actual physical work that you are learning. It's actually the thought process that is important...!

If you cross your arms in front of your chest, are your left hand fingers pointing up, or your right hand fingers? Try it if you please... and now try it the other way... you'll probably find that it takes you a few more nano seconds to do it, and it feels a bit weird. But if you keep doing it a few more times, you'll be able to do it quite quickly. That's because the neurons for that movements are now connected in your brain.

The important thing in your experience is what you have developed in your thought process when the whole thing happened. The first time it was frustrating... but of course, you were not trained to handle it... but it just means that no neurons have been connected to handle that thought process yet. Now that you know what you need to think about, next time, you'll be prepared... whether next time is your next booking at the same place, or next time you could be encountering this situation as a full-fledge Commander of a passenger aircraft.

The next thing here is a MUST for you to learn from, and that is to evaluate now how your flight was affected from the unexpected delay. Now that you have survived that particular flight, think deeply now and relive the moments from the time you discovered that the aircraft was frozen. You don't have to tell anyone how you feel...

... when you saw the frozen aircraft, were you confused? When you saw no one else were there to help, were you angry and frustrated?

... after you spent all that time "unfreezing" the aircraft, were you tired? Were you still angry and frustrated?

... how about the moment when you started the engine and began the flight, were you cold, tired, angry, frustrated?

... did you have passengers? If you did, did your passengers have an angry and frustrated pilot that didn't want to chat with them much throughout the flight?

My guess is you probably had a little bit of each of the above. Now to think about it, if you were confused, angry, cold, and frustrated... would that be a good time to go flying? It's the human factor aspect that you have just learned out of this unfortunate experience, that is the MOST IMPORTANT! Next time, you'll know how it is affecting you, and you may pay attention to "cool down" before you fly, or if you cannot "cool down", then you might consider scrapping it all together.

As for the attitude of the dispatchers and instructors... now you know what NOT to become...!

The concept is the same for people that went to China, to be trained in marshall arts in the temples. First they will be asked to fetch water from the river every morning, and do whatever other things a slave would be asked to do. It would seem like nothing but pure bully and torture. But behind the scene, a humble character is being built, so that when this person acquires the skills to "kill", he/she is humble enough NOT to use it wrongly..!

So to make a long story short, eterepekio... you have just learned something money cannot buy! Especially for pilots that live in the tropic...

Rgds,
Charlie

[Cat Driver]

or next time you could be encountering this situation as a full-fledge Commander of a passenger aircraft.

I really get a charge out of the word " Commander "
gives me a real rush.

[shimmydampner]

Cat gets the "Best post ever" award!

[Charlie]

Heh... thanks Cat. (smile)

Guess after over 3 years in Asia, I'm slowly being "assimilated" into the Asian titles.

Thanks for reminding me where home is... Cat! (smile)

Rgds,
Charlie

[Cat Driver]

We tend to get assimilated into a culture through osmosis, however the process seems to be swifter for some cultures.....

......Example....

We do a lot of our work out of North Weald airport in England and have access to the accident reports because they are lying around with the reading material at the Squadron Restaurant.

Two things always give me a real charge.....pilots of Cessna 150's being called " The Aircraft Commander " in the CAA accident reports and the Brits describing the last turn before landing as " turning finals ".

Maybe to be a " Commander " you need double vision?

[Ice Man]

hello