727 S/O

DHC3Rwannafly · Post by **DHC3Rwannafly** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 8:03 am

Just wondering how time is logged as a Second Officer on a 727? No clue...

727driver · Post by **727driver** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:17 am

S/O does not count towards any ratings or license reqiuirements. Some airline will give you half credit for S/O time toward total time. However when listing total time do not include any s/o time as most places do not recognize this time.

Rudy · Post by **Rudy** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:14 pm

What's the difference between a second officer and a flight engineer? Do flight engineers need a special license?

skycoupe · Post by **skycoupe** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:05 pm

Ya .. an engineers .. as in Aircraft Maintenance Engineer

!MC · Post by **!MC** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:31 pm

Skycoupe, Flight engineers are not the same as AME's...as in needing a different license!

You shouldn't sound so smug in your replies unless the info is correct

ALT SEL · Post by **ALT SEL** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:37 pm

Ya .. an engineers .. as in Aircraft Maintenance Engineer

Thats one of the dumbest replys i've seen on here thus far

skycoupe · Post by **skycoupe** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:45 pm

Sorry to offend your sensibilities
Was just trying to differentiate between a Flight Engineer and someone with a BEng degree

727driver · Post by **727driver** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:13 pm

A FE is an AME who licensed to act as a crewmember when operating the aircraft systems inflight. An FE can also be approved to defer defects in the MEL, complete daily inspections or maintinence that would require the approval of an AME. This can be important when operating to remote or non maint. base. A S/O is a commercial pilot with a rating to operate the FE station of the aircraft. Essentially online they complete the same duties.

brokenwing · Post by **brokenwing** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:26 pm

skycoupe · Post by **skycoupe** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:46 pm

Essentially online they complete the same duties.

Driver, that is true, until you are broken down in buttfu** nowhere .. then the true value of having a Flight Engineer onboard will show itself .. he/she will have a much better chance of gettin your sorry ass into your own bed that night than a S/O will

One of the reasons AC got rid of the 10-11s

DHC3Rwannafly · Post by **DHC3Rwannafly** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 7:48 pm

Well i'm glad I stirred up some argument instead of getting some answers...thanks for your info 727driver.

moocow · Post by **moocow** » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:50 pm

Stupid question. Does the S/O of a 727 actually be behind the flight controls or just seat in the FE station? I read the TC website regarding crediting co-pilot hours toward ATPL. My question is that if I'm behind the control of the aircraft as relieve co-pilot will my hours be credited even if my rank is S/O in the company? That's of course assuming TC would even recognize hours from a Hong Kong airline.

R1830 · Post by **R1830** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:11 am

S/O of a 727 and S/O at some fly by night Hong Kong airline are 2 very different things.

A 727 S/O is basically a systems manager, well that and checklist reader, fuel balancer, walkaround doer, and also paperwork doer..

An S/O on one of those fancy new fangled things that said Hong Kong operator has is a relief pilot. They fly ( I think) all 2 crew airplanes.

Basically there you are at a set of controls, on the 727 unles you consider a fuel shutoff switch a flight control, you are not.

Rudder Bug · Post by **Rudder Bug** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:18 am

brokenwing wrote:RB?

Yes?

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 8:56 am

This did get complicated for such a simple answer -- no -- no way - can't be done -- S/O= switch operator - you are not endorsed on the airplane so if you aren't legal to fly it you can't log time even if someone lets you steer the bird in cruise --

There is no reason what so ever for anyone to want to be a S/O unless they want to get with a company and accumulate seniority so you can achieve a flying job. It will also be up to you to maintain your instrument rating yourself. Even seniority is a crap shoot if the company has a minimum experience matrix -- you will rot in that job -- making below minimum wage (an F/E will pull down almost 3X's more money doing the same job) and have them hire off the street and bypass your sorry ass -- that's the black and white of it -- unfortunately --

727driver · Post by **727driver** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 9:43 am

Liquid Charlie you do receive a 727 Second Officer Type Rating on your license. Even though you are not "steering the bird" you require the type rating to act as a crew member aboard the flight. Many of those including myself feel that the time as a second officer was time well spent. I found the time spent in the 72 as a S/O very useful when transitioning from light aircraft to transport category jet and eventually to F/O. It's interesting how many misconceptions exist about this position on a three man aircraft. But to answer the original question. You cannot log 727 S/O time towards any licenses or ratings. However S/O's should keep a separate record of the time spent as a S/O as some airlines do credit you half time when evaluating your credentials and you never know when you may need those few extra hours to put you ahead in the line.

xqs-me · Post by **xqs-me** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:02 am

It's funny how a lot of people in this web-site like to talk and give advise even though they have no clue about the subject except what they've learned in Microsoft simulator 98.
Spending some time in the back seat is great since it gives you a great introduction on aircraft systems, SOPs and "tricks" that guys on the left seat(with tons of experience) bring into the 3 crew environment.
It's true that time "playing the piano" does not count towards your total time, but as previously mentioned by somebody who knows what he's talking about, some airlines well not consider this time as useless since it requires a "fair" amount of knowledge. So it's a good idea to keep the time recorded somewhere for future reference.
My name is MANOT and I love the good old "three holer"

Luscombe · Post by **Luscombe** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 6:50 pm

When I was an S/O, I kept a separate logbook for that purpose. At first I thought it was a useless waste of time because I thought the time was "worthless".

A couple of years later, I was being interviewed for a 737 job and the Chief Pilot actually looked at my S/O logbook. It seems that although their operation didn't include it in total time, it was considered very beneficial. To make a long story short, I did get the job. I don't know if my S/O time was the reason I was hired, or just the proverbial "icing on the cake", but it did make the difference.

I enjoyed my time as a 727 S/O. It was an excellent introduction to transport category turbojet systems. It certainly made the 737 groundschool a whole lot easier to digest.

Fr8 dawg · Post by **Fr8 dawg** » Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:46 pm

A 727 S/O is basically a systems manager, well that and checklist reader, fuel balancer, walkaround doer, and also paperwork doer..

Damn!! I didn't know I used to be that important!
They always referred to me as "Hey, Bitch !" !!!

R1830 · Post by **R1830** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 8:32 am

The Hey bitch comments were most likely more personality based....

ez4u2say · Post by **ez4u2say** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 9:02 am

Ok here we go...just a question so let's not get too graphic on this.
Pilot..commercial..class one medical..no ifr, no multi engine. Has accumulated 2000 hours in various light aircraft over the many many year. Has no intention of flying the bird since getting a bit long in the tooth, however would enjoy some time in the 3 holer. So now the question. What does this individual require to legally sit side saddle here in Canada..keep in mind that $'s are not being questioned here and with the pilot shortage it seems most upcoming pilots whould rather get into the r/h seat or directly into the left..

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:38 pm

Ok -- I pull back a little -- sure when you are sitting behind me watching you are learning -- but unless a company has a place to go it is a bit of a no where job. Much better building time even if it's in a 172 doing pipeline patrol than sitting as an S/O -- unless you can use time to accumulate seniority and maybe move to the right seat on a turbo prop -- some companies will promote S/O's and I am a firm believer in this - and s/o will do far better than a 1500 hour light twin driver but most companies and the one I work for will usually bypass a 300 hour s/o and hire off the street. BTW -- I have flown nothing but 3 crew airplanes for the last 12(or more -- I'm loosing track -- lol) years -- extra pair of eyes and ears are great and i can't count the number of times that the f/e and eventually the s/o pick up that are missed --

Unfortunately in this day and age s/o's find themselves not marketable and the pay is so poor than unless I stated before you are building seniority -- and as far as an s/o being endorsed I don't think so -- I know s/o or f/e does not do a TC ride for an initial as is required for front end unless waved.

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:42 pm

What you would need is to meet the company hiring matrix -- most companies require Commercial -- IFR -- so even though you don't need an instrument rating to sit sideways I doubt if a company would hire you without. As it stands you are more than qualified (if you have a commercial) but unless you have an in it might be difficult to get hired. -- go figure --

Liquid Charlie · Post by **Liquid Charlie** » Sat Nov 24, 2007 1:51 pm