AF Fined For Forcing 175 Kg Pax To Buy 2 Seats

[THEICEMAN]

AF have been ordered to pay €8000 compensation plus the cost of the second seat to a 175 Kg (385 lb) passenger who was denied boarding unless he stumped up for a second seat.

The passenger was measured with wrapping tape in the gate area.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/11/23 ... pensation/

[Tibor]

For sure if the pax blobs over into the next seat/aisle. Not fair to the other pax next to them that then gets a half a seat.

[Nark]

At what point are these people an issue to safety?

And if you think I'm being an unfair only towards fat-asses, how about the folks who need to preboard too?

I'm not stirring the pot only asking a simple question.

[Alex YCV]

My feeling is that when you buy a seat on an airline, you buy 1 seat. If you require 1.5 seats, or render a seat next to you unusable, the airline should not be forced to suffer a loss of capacity or loss of income to accommodate the larger traveller.

(without getting rude here) Imagine for a minute a 50 seat jet that is chartered by NAAFA for a group trip. 50 morbidly obese people who up expecting there to be 50 seats. They all bring the maximum allowed baggage. Anyone want to do a weights and balance on this setup?

The sad fact is that we live in a very PC world where fat people are fat, dumb people aren't dumb, etc. We are in overwhelming denial of reality.

[sheephunter]

I have been the guy in the seat next to... Toronto - Van. Nice. Paid full price and let the guy next to me use half my seat. Yes, they should pay extra or the person beside them pay nothing for the complete discomfort of being crammed into an already small seat. Or at least be approached by the airline representatives and be re-imbursed, free tickets or something.

They must personally realize that they are not being fair to the person next to them.

I don't know where you would make the "call" as to being excessive. 250 / 300 / 325 / 350. No different than excess baggage, you get charged. It should be written in the company rates since we all know what transport describes as a normal person male / female, summer / winter.

Not trying to "fat bash", but boys let's get a grip on reality.

But what about the person that requests a window seat and then spends half the flight climbing over you to use the washroom every 12-15 minutes? What's with that?

[CD]

Here's a little something to consider the next time as well:

Each seat or berth, and its supporting structure, and each safety belt or harness and its anchorage must be designed for an occupant weight of 170 pounds, considering the maximum load factors, inertia forces, and reactions among the occupant, seat, safety belt, and harness for each relevant flight and ground load condition (including the emergency landing conditions prescribed in 25.561).

Sec. 25.785 - Seats, berths, safety belts, and harnesses

[Bushav8er]

Based on that CD,

the above scenario would go like this, seat used, weight over design limits; therefore not in compliance with CARs, therefore no CofA in effect, therefore no insurance....

THEREFORE - person over the 'design' limits MUST use additional seat (if thats even within design) and pay for it!

PC only means we can't call them 'fat' and can't deny them access but not for free - "Go ahead sir, I can see that you need two pizzas, take the second for free".

Again, PC is one thing but get real! When does protecting a persons safety over-ride a persons rights?? To me - every time.

[C-FABH]

While the person should definitely be required to purchase a second seat, I'm not quite sure if the manner in which the Air France staff acted was entirely appropriate.

The gentleman states he was measured in the boarding lounge with a measuring tape, which I believe would be rather humiliating. In my opinion, a much more subtle and appropriate method is to have them take their seat during pre-boarding and the staff can make an evaluation based on that (just like you may have seen on "Airline" with Southwest).

However, I'm unsure if Air France has pre-boarding. I have witnessed the "cattle-call" at Paris and believe it's more of a free for all.

[2R]

In an emergency someone that size would block an exit killing everyone behind them

[l_reason]

One way to fix the problem is to put all the big people in the same row (preferably close to the center of the aircraft for W&B). If the drink kart cant pass with only one FA pushing they need to buy more space.

[Mile High Guy]

I Personslly believe that if you are going to use more than 1 seats worth of space, you should pay more.
There is however 2 ways for airlines to fix this issue without crossing over the lines of PCness.

1) If you bring more than the allowable baggage, you're charged more, so instead of selling a seat, the ailrine rewords the contact to state the maxinmum allowable weight per seat is................... . If your weight is more, you pay X. This should be very easy to day as all Governing bodies (As mentioned above) have weight restrictions based on the number of seats and seat strenght.

2) The airline instead of selling a "seat" sells you the space the seat takes up, if you need more than the allotted space for your bottom, you simply by more space. Just like the wire basket you have to put your carry on into to see if its the right size, there could be a "seat" for each persons bottom at the gate. Doesn't fit, thats ok, just buy more space!

but thats just my opinion.

[rd1331]

I think AF screwed up in this instance. They should not have measured the person in the middle of the boarding lounge. That was completely uncalled for and may have been the reasoning for them having to pay the passenger the money.

I completely agree with everyone that if you take up more space that 1 seat you should have to pay more. If i'm ever beside someone on an airplane and they take up some of my seat I sure as hell will ask for a refund, i didn't pay for half a damn seat.

Now that being said what disturbs me the most about this is the safety issure. As someone already said what about in an evac situation, are the evac times etc, on airplanes calculated with a 400 lb person that can barely squeeze down the ailse? And as CD showed is the person infront going to get killed when the seat collapses due to the fact its not made for that type of impact? They should have a couple seats on the a/c that are designed for larger people, oh they due, they are called first class. I was going to say they should make larger seats a couple per aircraft but they due, first class. These people that are too big, and sometimes its not weight its just strickly size, should have to buy seats that will accomidate there size safely.

[Widow]

I agree that a passenger whose size is greater than that safely accomodated in the seat should have to be accomodated differently.

If the seat only safely accomodates a 170 lb (or less) person, it would seem that this may be inadequate. http://www.cflri.ca/pdf/e/pip15.pdf shows that in 1995 the average weight of a Canadian woman is about 163 lbs, and the average Canadian man is about 177 lbs.

A seperate area for economy class oversizes would end up looking like segregation, which no one is going to like.

But how do you figure it out prior to ticketing? And without knowing prior to ticketing how much space a passenger requires, how can you ensure you don't oversell the aircraft space?

[North Shore]

If the drink kart cant pass with only one FA pushing they need to buy more space.

Why would the drink cart need to go any further? Wouldn't they just eat all of the food there?

[Alex YCV]

In the end, it is the land of political correctness, giving everyone a overbroad sense of deserving everything in the world be adapted to their personal requirements, no matter how much in infringes on the lives of others.

When you sit at a window seat and a morbidly obese person sits down next to you, like it or not, they will infringe on your space and they will affect your flight. They will ask to have the armrest raised because it is cutting into their sides, they will overflow into your seat, and they will turn your flight, already bad enough because you are flying cattle class on an airline that thinks a 29inch seat spacing is comfy and turn it into an uncomfortable hell flight.

If the person cannot fit comfortably and safely into the standard seat, it is up to them to find another solution, not to impose hardship or create risk to others just to preserve their vanity.

It really does sound like the AF people did this the wrong way, but at the same time I think they aren't wrong. Too bad that the courts can't seem to see past their PC colored glasses to put see the practical implications of such a ruling.

[sky's the limit]

We've added extra large seat belts in all our helicopters, as the ones they installed back in the 70's are FAR too small these days... Had a guy a couple weeks ago show up, couldn't take him.

If you're that big, pay for two, take the train, or loose the weight.

Imho of course.


stl

[GilletteNorth]

Great, take the train. On a trip from Winterpeg to Edmonton a long time ago I had a ticket on a train that put me next to one very obese lady. I decided to spent the entire trip in the club car watching the prairies go by. I can commiserate, however...

Airlines are a service and are in business to make money, but on the premise they provide space on a aircraft the public can purchase for travel. Would the airlines please just accept that some people are very much larger than others and make seating suitable for them? Clothing manufacturers make small, medium, large, extra large, extra extra etc clothing... maybe aviation companies should learn to make seating to match? Some are, slowly, like with the new seats that can become beds on some international flights. Only a few airlines have recognized that people need more space. Providing space on an aircraft for larger personal seating requirements is something that should be addressed for domestic flights. One size DOES NOT fit all when it comes to airline seats. I haven't been below 200lbs since my late 20's. Who chose 177lb as the average? That's based on what average height? So tall people should pay more too? I'd guess that the 'average' weight has gone up, since news services report 40-50% of our population is overweight. Besides that, I watch people getting off aircraft every day, and the fellas getting off the planes, maybe wouldn't be described as fat, but they're pretty husky. I can't believe most of them are in the 177lb average. Pay for the seat, sure, but provide a seat a person can be comfortable in.

[Skud Run]

Well a couple points to mention; First there should be a max weight for a standard ticket, probably around 230 lbs. If you weigh more you pay per pound. And yes this would apply to the big and tall as well. As for just plain FAT (weight not ideal for height); you MUST purchase a first class ticket in addition to the excess weight of blubber. Fat people should pay more for tickets as smokers pay more for insurance.

[200hr Wonder]

So Skud tall people should pay extra now too? I mean I am six four and last I checked I would be somewhere in the neighborhood of six four when I died less something drastic happens like I get my legs chopped off. So I should be required to pay more for simply being tall? Damn you know it must be nice to be so below average. Below average height, weight, intelligence and I am sure pilotage skill to!

[GilletteNorth]

I don't think there should be a maximum weight, I think tickets should be for a certain weight range. Ticket A for people under 90lbs, ticket B for 90.01 to 150lb, ticket C for 150.01 to 210lb etc. Then provide an APPROPRIATE seat size for that weight. Thin small people get a better fare because the aircraft uses less fuel to carry them than a fat large person would. At least that's logical. Since people are unhappy about 'sharing' their seat... give the larger people a larger seat. What's it to you if someone else has a larger seat? It's not larger to the larger person, it's their size. Give people what they pay for. If you advocate that larger people should pay a higher fare, fine, give them a larger seat as well for their larger space needs that they are paying for. That way they wouldn't encroach on the smaller people. Airlines get their payment for space useage and fuel costs, small and large people who fly don't bump into each other every time they turn sideways. Of course now there's better incentive to do a proper weight and balance before each flight.

[200hr Wonder]

And people will not lie through there teeth to get the smaller seat and save ten bux?

I can just see it now, crash diets to "make weight" for your flight.

[Alex YCV]

I don't think there should be a maximum weight, I think tickets should be for a certain weight range. Ticket A for people under 90lbs, ticket B for 90.01 to 150lb, ticket C for 150.01 to 210lb etc. Then provide an APPROPRIATE seat size for that weight. Thin small people get a better fare because the aircraft uses less fuel to carry them than a fat large person would. At least that's logical. Since people are unhappy about 'sharing' their seat... give the larger people a larger seat. What's it to you if someone else has a larger seat? It's not larger to the larger person, it's their size. Give people what they pay for. If you advocate that larger people should pay a higher fare, fine, give them a larger seat as well for their larger space needs that they are paying for. That way they wouldn't encroach on the smaller people. Airlines get their payment for space useage and fuel costs, small and large people who fly don't bump into each other every time they turn sideways. Of course now there's better incentive to do a proper weight and balance before each flight.

By that logic, you should give super big discounts to double leg amputees because they are lighter and you don't have to worry so much about seat rake. I wonder how many double amputees you could fit onto an A380?

[GilletteNorth]

In effect then you agree with the larger fare/larger seat for larger passengers plan and now you are only worried about confirmation of weights? Like I said, there will be more incentive for airlines to do proper weight and balance since if someone lies about their weight to try get a reduced fare the airline loses money. Maybe do the weigh-in immediately after the security checks? Like the disinfecting mats that were introduced for international flights, maybe a weigh-scale everyone must step on before boarding? People will have more incentive to lose weight and reduce their carry-ons and airlines will have accurate data for their weight and balance sheets.

[GilletteNorth]

Alex YCV:

By that logic, you should give super big discounts to double leg amputees because they are lighter and you don't have to worry so much about seat rake. I wonder how many double amputees you could fit onto an A380?

You forgot to mention midgets... don't forget the little people

The point people are discussing is that big people take more room than 'their share"... and they want to make em pay. Well, it's logical to a point, so take the logic further, give the flying public what they want... bigger seats for bigger people, little seats for little people, pay according to scale. So yes, Alex, I'd guess double amputees get a real big bonus. Maybe they can cut off an arm too for extra savings.

[Nark]

Why don't they grow a pair of balls and tell them the truth.

"Sir, you are too fat. In the event of an evacuation you will hinder the lives of the other passengers."

When are people going to put others ahead of their own feelings?


Theres probably a good reason I'm not in the customer relations business.