VFR entering controlled airspace, permitted to descend?

[szakreski]

Let's say Im flying VFR into Thunder Bay at 8000 asl, and approaching their airspace and radio in and advise I am inbound. ATC acknowledges and tells me to continue inbound, and not much else.
Am I free to descend at my own discretion without further communication?, or am I free to descend after advising ATC?, or do I have to ask permission to descend?
I seem to recall once being told "you are VFR so you can descend whenever you want", but somehow it doesn't seem right.

[Jerricho]

Thunder Bay is Class E from 35 miles until you hit the Tower zone (Class D).

As to the airspace, as long as you've got your transponder on, fill your boots. "Permission" as you put it, is not required. You might want to keep a good look out in the Kakakbeka Falls area to the west of the field or Hazlewood to the north, as the local flying colleges go out there and beat the crap out of each other. See and be seen.

And checking in with ATC for radar identification, if you haven't had a chance to check the ATIS, you'll probably be given the runway in use.......another handy thing so you don't mix it up with a WestJet 737.

[767]

even if permission is not required, you should still advise atc. i remeber once the controller barking at me becuase i never told him i was going to start descending. i was on flight following and in class "E" airspace. just advise, saves the barking and arguing.

[justplanecrazy]

If you're inbound to a field, have made contact with tower and you haven't been given a restriction, then feel free.

even if permission is not required, you should still advise atc. i remeber once the controller barking at me becuase i never told him i was going to start descending. i was on flight following and in class "E" airspace. just advise, saves the barking and arguing.

If you're enroute with flight following, then act as though you're IFR seeing as you're talking to an IFR controller and they expect somewhat the same procedures for VFR aircraft. If you come over level at 6.5 enroute to Zhoda MB, the controller doesn't expect you to be climbing or descending unless you're starting your descent to your destination or climbing out from it. They're probably not real familiar with Zhoda and even if they are, if you've been on flight following for 100nm at 90kts, and suddenly start your descent for a field, then yes it comes as a surprise. In that case a simple request for descent or an advisory that your commencing descent, is very helpful. Telling a tower controller is pointless and just adds to frequency congestion, telling an enroute controller, is a good idea.

[justplanecrazy]

If you're enroute with flight following, its good airmanship. In this scenario its just pointless frequency congestion.

Let's say Im flying VFR into Thunder Bay at 8000 asl, and approaching their airspace and radio in and advise I am inbound. ATC acknowledges and tells me to continue inbound, and not much else.
Am I free to descend at my own discretion without further communication?, or am I free to descend after advising ATC?, or do I have to ask permission to descend?
I seem to recall once being told "you are VFR so you can descend whenever you want", but somehow it doesn't seem right.

CPL_ATC, do you expect an aircraft to tell you he's starting his descent after being cleared for the visual? This is no different. He's called in telling you he's inbound to a field. Obviously he's going to descend and if you don't want him to, that's your responsibility to throw in the restriction.

Fill your boots and hang it up until 6miles back or start a gentle down slope right away. You're VFR and it's your discretion unless otherwise restricted. You are free to descend, you don't have to and its pointless to advise that you're starting your descent and you definitely don't have to have ask permission.

[szakreski]

An advantage of advising ATC when starting a descent, is that if by chance I was indeed under an altitude restriction without being aware of it, (say I had entered Class C airspace) it gives the controller an opportunity to clarify the restriction prior to me actually busting that restriction and possibly getting a violation.

[justplanecrazy]

If you're unsure ask. How does entering class C airspace give you an altitude restriction that you're unaware of??? If you're that unsure that you have to advise starting descent because you routinely forget your restrictions, then we have bigger problems. If I've given you a restriction and you advise you're starting your descent, I won't think of you any differently than the guy that descends on his own, I'll just catch it sooner.

[Jerricho]

Remember folks........Class E

Transponder if transponder airspace. Not necessarily talky-talky to ATC.

[justplanecrazy]

In the example given, he's called ATC and informed them he's inbound. Once you're talking to ATC, I wouldn't treat class E any different than class C, or even B, as a pilot.

[zzjayca]

In the example given, he's called ATC and informed them he's inbound. Once you're talking to ATC, I wouldn't treat class E any different than class C, or even B, as a pilot.

I hope you aren't a pilot!! Class B airspace is very different than Class C or E airspace for what is required from a VFR aircraft.

AIM RAC:

2.8.2 Class B Airspace

Class B airspace is designated where an operational need
exists to provide air traffic control service to IFR and to
control VFR aircraft.

Operations may be conducted under IFR or VFR. All
aircraft are subject to ATC clearances and instructions. ATC separation is provided to all aircraft.

2: A person operating an aircraft on a VFR flight
in Class B airspace shall operate the aircraft in
VMC at all times. When it becomes evident that
flight in VMC will not be possible at the altitude
or along the route specified, the pilot shall:

(a) request an ATC clearance which will enable
the aircraft to be operated in VMC to the filed
destination, or to another aerodrome;

Separation is provided to ALL aircraft operating in Class B airspace. A VFR aircraft is treated the same as an IFR aircraft in Class B airspace and the same is expected of them. They must receive clearance from ATC before changing altitudes, headings, routing, etc.

As far as ATC is concerned, the only difference between an IFR aircraft and a VFR aircraft in Class B airspace is the VFR aircraft is still required to remain clear of cloud.

[killer84]

Long story short, if you are entering a control zone talking to a tower, you don't need to tell them you are starting descent. In fact, don't, it's not necessary at all. When you call up at 8500, the tower controller knows that you need to descend at some time. When you do is up to you. If there is traffic, the controller will restrict you (ie ABC cleared left base, not below 5000 until advised). If there is traffic and the controller doesn't restrict you, he is essentially "hoping" that you don't start your descent until you're by the traffic. That shouldn't happen.

Same thing for when you take off. When you are cleared for takeoff, you don't need to tell the tower that you're starting your climb.

[justplanecrazy]

In the example given, he's called ATC and informed them he's inbound. Once you're talking to ATC, I wouldn't treat class E any different than class C, or even B, as a pilot.

I hope you aren't a pilot!! Class B airspace is very different than Class C or E airspace for what is required from a VFR aircraft.

AIM RAC:

2.8.2 Class B Airspace

Class B airspace is designated where an operational need
exists to provide air traffic control service to IFR and to
control VFR aircraft.

Operations may be conducted under IFR or VFR. All
aircraft are subject to ATC clearances and instructions. ATC separation is provided to all aircraft.

2: A person operating an aircraft on a VFR flight
in Class B airspace shall operate the aircraft in
VMC at all times. When it becomes evident that
flight in VMC will not be possible at the altitude
or along the route specified, the pilot shall:

(a) request an ATC clearance which will enable
the aircraft to be operated in VMC to the filed
destination, or to another aerodrome;

What do you do in Class C or D when an ATC clearance doesn't allow you to operate VMC... go IMC without telling them, or just disobey the clearance??? WTF???

Separation is provided to ALL aircraft operating in Class B airspace. A VFR aircraft is treated the same as an IFR aircraft in Class B airspace and the same is expected of them. They must receive clearance from ATC before changing altitudes, headings, routing, etc.

As far as ATC is concerned, the only difference between an IFR aircraft and a VFR aircraft in Class B airspace is the VFR aircraft is still required to remain clear of cloud.

So if you call a tower in Class D airspace and state that you're at 8.5 inbound and they clear you right base, you descend at your discretion and join right base. You call a tower in Class B airspace and state that you're at 8.5 inbound and they clear you right base, you descend at your discretion and join right base. If the controller in Class D clears you right base not below 5,000' you descend at your discretion down to 5,000'. If the controller in Class B clears you right base not below 5,000' you descend at your discretion down to 5,000'. What am I missing here???

Name a scenario where you as a pilot would react differently to a control instruction based on the airspace that it's being provided in. The only exception is if you call inbound and you're told to standby in Class D, you can still enter the zone, although common sense tells you that it'd be wiser to orbit clear and wait until he has time to deal with you.

Yes I am a pilot and I've flown into numerous airports, several with a class B CZ. I'm thinking you're the one that has no idea what goes on in class B airspace other than what you quote from your fancy books. I arrived to KPHL cleared right base and altitude my discretion, I departed on course and not above a certain altitude. I arrived to Springbank on a hard heading and hard altitude, departed on a hard heading and altitude. I could change headings and altitude and in class B but not in class D because that was the clearance I was given.

An ATC clearance or an instruction is the same in any airspace. If you're not restricted, you're not restricted. If you tell them you're inbound, you're telling them you're descending. If no restriction is given, you are free to descend at your discretion. It's no different than an IFR aircraft on cleared right visual without any altitude restriction being added.

[Pygmie]

If you're not familiar with it, there is class B airspace between airportsas well, not just around control towers. If a VFR aircraft is going to be flying between, say, YBW and YWG at 15,000', he is in Class B aispace from the moment he hits 12,500'. When he is given the clearance to enter Class B airspace, he MUST STAY at that altitude until he is CLEARED BY ATC to descend.

[szakreski]

To allow the subject of this thread to drift a little, (we've beaten the original subject to death) Does Canada use Class B at all around airports? I may be wrong, but I think the only place you see Class B in Canada is above 12,500 asl. Our big airports are all Class C. For all intents and purposes, our Class C is equivalent to USA Class B.

Incidentally, and once again I'm posting this to get clarification, I'm no authority: I believe one important difference between flying VFR in Canada and USA, is in the USA, you can fly OVER their big Class B airports without clearance by flying above 10,000 asl (in most cases). In Canada, the space above big airports, in our case, Class C, becomes MORE restrictive, turning into Class B airspace.

[szakreski]

Ok, Ok, I'm wrong. Halifax, Quebec City, and Winnipeg are Class B, while the 4 largest airports in Canada: Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and Calgary (the one's I checked before writing that last post) are Class C?! Bizarre... what's the story behind that!

[justplanecrazy]

Ok, Ok, I'm wrong. Halifax, Quebec City, and Winnipeg are Class B, while the 4 largest airports in Canada: Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, and Calgary (the one's I checked before writing that last post) are Class C?! Bizarre... what's the story behind that!

Actually WG, HZ and QB are all Class D control zones. I don't think there's any Class B airspace in Canada except for between 12,500 and 18,000 over airways and other airspace.

Pygmie the example given was of someone calling inbound at 8,500'. Obviously he isn't on a clearance in Class B airspace. We're not talking about CVFR flights, which are the only ones permitted in Class B airspace. We're talking about standard VFR inbound to a field asking whether or not they need descend without prior permission.

If ATC clears a VFR aircraft to maintain a certain altitude in any controlled airspace, he must stay at that altitude until he is cleared by ATC to descend. If no such restriction is given, then they are free to descend. The only reason specific altitude clearances are usually given in Class B is because ATC must apply seperation between all aircraft in Class B whether they are VFR or IFR. The only way you can ensure that easily enroute is through altitude and heading restrictions. There isn't anything that states everyone must be on a specific heading or altitude, only that seperation between all aircraft be maintained.

Man I wish you guys would read through the previous posts. This is about the 5th time that I've said that.

[szakreski]

OK that's what I thought. My Jeppesen FliteStar program shows all three as Class B, which surprised me. But now I realize it is displaying the area above the Class D aispace.

[zzjayca]

In the example given, he's called ATC and informed them he's inbound. Once you're talking to ATC, I wouldn't treat class E any different than class C, or even B, as a pilot.

I quoted you again because treating Class B airspace the same as Class C or E is incorrect. There is a big difference between Class C, D, and E airspace and Class B airspace. You go on to say:

If ATC clears a VFR aircraft to maintain a certain altitude in any controlled airspace, he must stay at that altitude until he is cleared by ATC to descend. If no such restriction is given, then they are free to descend. The only reason specific altitude clearances are usually given in Class B is because ATC must apply seperation between all aircraft in Class B whether they are VFR or IFR. The only way you can ensure that easily enroute is through altitude and heading restrictions. There isn't anything that states everyone must be on a specific heading or altitude, only that seperation between all aircraft be maintained.

This is my point. Since ATC is responsible for separation for all aircraft, IFR and VFR are treated the same. However, altitude clearances are not usually given, they are always given in Class B airspace.

What do you do in Class C or D when an ATC clearance doesn't allow you to operate VMC... go IMC without telling them, or just disobey the clearance??? WTF???

This comment is just stupid. Obviously, the safety of the aircraft takes precedence. As PIC, you are permitted to ignore/disobey any ATC instruction/clearance which puts the safety of your aircraft in jeopardy.

You call a tower in Class B airspace and state that you're at 8.5 inbound and they clear you right base, you descend at your discretion and join right base.

You are still agreeing with me. The controller cleared the inbound to join right base with no altitude restrictions. Sounds like a clearance to me.

I arrived to KPHL cleared right base and altitude my discretion, I departed on course and not above a certain altitude.

Again, “altitude my discretion” sounds like a clearance to me. However, I don't care what the rules are in the USA. This discussion is about what is required in Canada. The last time I checked, Nav Canada paid my salary, not the FAA. Until that changes, I will endeavor to follow the rules which I am required to operate within not the rules which are in place in the FAA. This brings me to my next point:

Actually WG, HZ and QB are all Class D control zones. I don't think there's any Class B airspace in Canada except for between 12,500 and 18,000 over airways and other airspace.

Since there is no Class B airspace around airports in Canada, when you say as a pilot you would treat it the same as Class C or E then you can only be talking about Class B airspace above 12,500ASL.

We're not talking about CVFR flights, which are the only ones permitted in Class B airspace. We're talking about standard VFR inbound to a field asking whether or not they need descend without prior permission.

Again, by your own admission, the only Class B airspace in Canada is above 12,500ASL. So, if you are making any comments about what is required in Class B airspace, you are talking about CVFR above 12,500ASL. Even if there were airports surrounded by Class B airspace, your blanket statement about treating Class B the same as Class C or E is incorrect. I am not talking about what happens around an airport because it seems to be covered in the previous posts.

I do apologize for the "I hope you aren't a pilot" comment. It was out of line. I am only concerned that a VFR pilot may read your comments about treating Class B the same as Class C or E and get himself/herself in trouble if they are ever operating above 12,500ASL CVFR.

[justplanecrazy]

zzjayca... as a pilot you don't treat class B airspace any differently than class E other than how much time you spend looking out the window. If you're given an altitude restriction then you abide by it, if you aren't, then it's your discretion. As a controller, you treat class B airspace very differently than class E.

You keep stating that as a pilot you have to treat class B airspace very differently then class D but the only examples you give are the differences that you as a controller make for the various airspace.

Bottom line, listen to what the controller tells you. If you're asked to maintain a certain altitude, then request lower and wait for clearance before descending. If you don't you'll get in shit regardless of the airspace that you're in. If you're given a clearance with no altitude restrictions, then descend at your discretion and you won't get in shit regardless of the airspace that you're in.

The only time airspace makes a difference to the pilot is when he doesn't have the required transponder, radio etc. required to enter that airspace or when he chooses to enter airspace without making radio contact, or receiving a clearance.

I didn't think this discussion was based on Canadian ops only, as nowhere does it say he's inbound to a field in Canada. It does say he's inbound to a field at 8,500' and the only place that you find class B airspace at that altitude, is in the USA. Who cares where your cheque comes from! This isn't about you, it's about a pilot that wants to know if he can descend from 8.5 when he calls inbound to a field and isn't restricted... RTFQ!!! Regardless of the airspace, if you're restricted don't descend until your restriction is cancelled... if you're not then have at it. Man I thought this might take a little bit of discussion to clear up with the newbie pilot, but he's looking pretty pro right about now.

[Jerricho]

Weren't we talking about Thunder Bay?????

[RAKX_78]

Does this also apply for my heading? Do I need to call my turn in class B or C airspace?
Btw, that may sound obvious and dumb, but I just started flight school.

[CpnCrunch]

Does this also apply for my heading? Do I need to call my turn in class B or C airspace?
Btw, that may sound obvious and dumb, but I just started flight school.

It's really the same answer as for altitude...just do what the controller tells you, and ask if there is any confusion. Usually in class C you'll be given a heading or waypoint to steer to. Sometimes VFR you'll just be heading towards your destination (or along your route) and you can make slight deviations as long as you're heading generally along the route the controller expects (and you haven't been given a heading vector).

Don't worry, it will all become obvious once you fly in class C. (Or, watch some youtube videos where people are flying in controlled airspace).

[Shao67]

Long story short, if you are entering a control zone talking to a tower, you don't need to tell them you are starting descent. In fact, don't, it's not necessary at all. When you call up at 8500, the tower controller knows that you need to descend at some time. When you do is up to you. If there is traffic, the controller will restrict you (ie ABC cleared left base, not below 5000 until advised). If there is traffic and the controller doesn't restrict you, he is essentially "hoping" that you don't start your descent until you're by the traffic. That shouldn't happen. Webcam test

Same thing for when you take off. When you are cleared for takeoff, you don't need to tell the tower that you're starting your climb.

Got it, so essentially, when you're entering a control zone and communicating with a tower, there's no need to inform them about starting your descent. They're already aware of your altitude and expect you to descend when necessary. If there's traffic, they'll give you specific instructions to ensure safety. Otherwise, it's up to your discretion. Thanks for clarifying!