who di-ices cessna at flight school

dom692222 · Post by **dom692222** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:52 am

hey folks plain question. at a flight school who is responsible for having the aircraft ready for the flight. would it be the school, the instructor , the student and instructor. if its the instructor should he/she get paid for wasting their time cleaning the aircraft. wouldn't it have to be the school incharge. making sure that the plane is ready for the instructor and students. anyways i'm lost on this one and need some advice. thanks ppl.

CCR · Post by **CCR** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:03 am

While it would be a good idea to learn how to de-ice, IMO the school should have the airplanes ready to go prior to the students arriving for their lessons.
You, the student, are paying for an aircraft that is airworthy and ready to go. It would be like arriving to find the engine cowling off and the AME waiting to give you a wrench so that you could learn how to fix the aircraft.

flyinhigh · Post by **flyinhigh** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:55 am

dom692222 wrote: instructor should he/she get paid for wasting their time cleaning the aircraft.

Sorry I may have miss understood this part, but if you think de-icing is a waste of time, WOW.

Anyhow, Ultimetly it is obviously up to the instructor as he is the PIC. Now as for the school making sure that the plane is ready. Not going to happen.

When I was in school, we paid based on hobbs hours. Not clock hours so if we ran over the scheduled clock due to the schools not helping, well there loss as everyone else was waiting for me to bring that plane back.

You should bring this up to your school though, see what they say.

Stinky · Post by **Stinky** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:01 am

I don't think he means de-icing is a waste of time. It was frustrating as an instructor to have to go out an hour and a half before a lesson to reposition the airplane, pre heat the engine and clean off the snow.
Then you fly with your student fill out the paperwork and drive home. 5 hours work for a lousy $18 and 1 hour of 172 time in your logbook.
Thats the way it is though, tough it out for a year or two and its behind you.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:20 am

There are different answers to your question, pending on which school you go to.
Most schools have line-men who put the aircraft in the hangar ready to go.

But if there are no line-men availabel...then this I believe shoudl apply:

-The student should be responsible for de-icing the airplane
-The instructor should make sure that the airplane is properly de-iced.

Why? Because the student ultimately wants to fly solo & better know how to de-ice an airplane! If the instructor sees something wrong, he's gnna let the student know.
essential part of the learning process towards your ppl.

just my two¢

phillyfan · Post by **phillyfan** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:38 am

The student is the customer. I don't get my passengers to clean off my airplane for me.
The school should have the forsight to have the airplanes ready ie: in the hangar or outside with wing covers on.
I guess beyond that if it's not ready and you want to eat that day you had better grab a broom.

THEICEMAN · Post by **THEICEMAN** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:22 pm

phillyfan wrote:The student is the customer. I don't get my passengers to clean off my airplane for me.

I see it in a different way.....

The student is gonna be a future private or commercial pilot. If his airplane is iced up & there is no hangar, he better know how to de-ice the airplane properly.
What is he going to do, call his x-instructor up & ask him to come inspect the airplane??

The student is your customer, but not your passenger. He is there to learn, not to go on joy ride!

He will fly P.I.C one day, & he better know what he is doing! Practise makes perfect!

Rudder Bug · Post by **Rudder Bug** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:38 pm

The student is a customer and doesn't have to freeze his balls in a de-icing session routine to learn the techniques.

The school must keep the fleet ready for work.

eterepekio · Post by **eterepekio** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:39 pm

I had a similar post a few weeks ago. Still is a problem when I go flying in the morning, only to do the dirty work and get no flying done. It's a problem of the schools. If you know you have 5 aircraft booked for 8:00AM, how about leaving those planes in the hanger overnight?

No hanger? Buy wing covers!

DA900 · Post by **DA900** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:47 pm

THEICEMAN wrote: The student is your customer, but not your passenger. He is there to learn, not to go on joy ride!

So who de-ices it when it's a "guest"?

PS. If a flightschool ever made me de-ice their airplane I would tell them to go f*ck themselves. Maybe after I'm finished flying I could refuel and put it in the hangar. Just so I could learn how to do that as well.

goates · Post by **goates** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:13 pm

When I was training it was the rampie's job to de-ice the planes (the students and/or the instructors were still responsible for making sure the aircraft was safe to fly). Maybe if it was really busy the instructor and student would grab a broom, but it was virtually always done by whomever was on the ramp that day (especially when it came to spraying the plane down).

I would think it would be better to train the guys on the ramp to clean/de-ice/handle the aircraft properly than to rely on who knows how many different students. Sure it's good to have the students help push the plane into the hangar etc., but it wouldn't be long before an inexperienced student damaged a plane.

And for the first flight of the day, the plane had better have been in the hangar over night. Otherwise it just wastes everyone's time.

ch135146 · Post by **ch135146** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:25 pm

DA900 wrote:If a flightschool ever made me de-ice their airplane I would tell them to go f*ck themselves.

Exactly.

Nightflight · Post by **Nightflight** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 3:29 pm

During my instructing days at Buttonville just North of Toronto, it was the duty pilot's job to make sure the airplanes were deiced and ready to go. The duty shifts were usually assigned to the lowest in seniority and we worked our way up from there. On my duty days I would get there at 5.30 a.m. and with my breathing mask, gloves, & spray bottle in hand I would set out to wage war on ice. If the job was too big for the cheap little spray bottle I would go get the de-ice cherry picker and blast away. It was also my job to get the airplanes warmed up with Herman Nelsons so when the student arrived at 7.00 a.m. they would have an airplane ready to go. I can't remember if they were Herman Nelsons or knock offs, but they did the job. Ahhh, such fond memories.

Oh yeah, all that for piddly pay of course.

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:50 pm

Moving to Arizona. See you in June...

The line service guys should have the airplane ready to go.

Having said that, ALWAYS TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR OWN SAFETY!

Meecka · Post by **Meecka** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 5:53 pm

Just out of curiosity here... Do any of you folks brush your cars off in the morning before going to work? Or do you have some "hired help" to do that, warm it up, and have it ready so you can just jump in it and go? Just curious....

rsandor · Post by **rsandor** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:15 pm

I agree 100% that every pilot NEEDS to know how to de-ice and airplane and NEEDS to do it at least once or twice to see how it's done.

I DO NOT agree that the person PAYING TO RENT the airplane should be doing it EVERY TIME they rent the plane, but they should still damn well check that there isn't any ice on the wings!!!

Just out of curiosity here... Do any of you folks brush your cars off in the morning before going to work? Or do you have some "hired help" to do that, warm it up, and have it ready so you can just jump in it and go? Just curious....

I don't rent my car from a rental agency at $150/hr.... if I did, it had damn well better be ready to go when they hand me the keys.

Now, when I was in school, I did it because I wanted to make sure it was done fast and done right. Now that I'm done my CPL/MIFR I don't go flying in that kind of weather unless I'm getting paid for it and someone else is cleaning up the plane before my walkaround.

Unfortunately many students who get into flying colleges forget the fact that they are still paying customers. Many of these students are still kids and are timid and can be pushed around by the flight school.

If you are an air cadet getting your licence for FREE, that's one thing... but when you are PAYING $$$$$ to do it, that's a different story!!!

Over the Horn · Post by **Over the Horn** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 8:44 pm

Now that I'm done my CPL/MIFR I don't go flying in that kind of weather unless I'm getting paid for it and someone else is cleaning up the plane before my walkaround.

I have a cpl I'm tooooo F%*k'n coool to de ice my plane

I'm so glad I don't work with assholes like you!

rsandor · Post by **rsandor** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:17 pm

Yeah OK I'm an asshole because I don't like the cold and I don't want to work or fly in it. ??

You are welcome to de ice as many planes in the morning as you want and go above and beyond and work harder for free as much as you want. I'd rather be an asshole than a sucker.

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 9:44 pm

DA900 wrote: So who de-ices it when it's a "guest"?

PS. If a flightschool ever made me de-ice their airplane I would tell them to go f*ck themselves. Maybe after I'm finished flying I could refuel and put it in the hangar. Just so I could learn how to do that as well.

Wow that is awfully big of you DA900, you would be the kind of student I would charge for every second of my time on the ground. You want me to answer a question then? Well I am in instructor I get paid for it. It took me five minutes of thinking and one minute to tell you, I would like my money for .1 ground brief then. Oh what you are 5min late for you booking? Too bad I have given the airplane away, you owe a no show fee.

Riddle me this, what would you do DA900 if you have an 2000 booking for a night flight and the frost has already set in? Expect the school to send someone out 3 hours after closing, clean your plane up and then wait around while you go flying and then fuel and put it to bed when you get back so you don't get your precious little tootsies cold?

Grow up! Renting an airplane is an entirely different ball of wax from a car, so don't even go there. DA900 I expect all of my students to clean the plane of there garbage on return, if the rampie is busy or not around help fuel and put it away. It is common courtesy. I also as an instructor always make it back 10min early to ensure the previous is done for the next student in line. De-icing, as an instructor I will show up early and get the plane ready, and guess what most of the time the student helps out. Usually because that means they get more airtime. The customer is the reason we are there absolutely, but we are not your servants, we are there to make sure that everything runs smoothly. By helping out, it helps you out.

If you can not tell I take this subject personal

costermonger · Post by **costermonger** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:13 pm

Now before we get a classic AvCanada pissing match going here, can we agree that any school that expects their students to ready the aircraft for use as a matter of practice may have a misplaced sense of who's in charge in the customer/business relationship?

I'm all for teaching students *how* to do it, so they can do it in the sort of exceptional circumstance you posted, 200hr Wonder, but in an everyday sort of situation where there's an instructor or rampie around, why should the student be expected to do it? It's in the instructor's best interest that it's done quickly and properly, and it's in the instructor's employer's best interest too.

Now, in terms of purely selfish reasons, here's my take. Where I work, we have ramp guys most of the time, but if I have to de-ice a plane for my own flight, I'd rather spend a few minutes out in the cold and get in the air faster then wait inside while the student takes twice as long as I would or does it half-assed. Not getting paid for 10 minutes of work is preferable to losing that much pay because you wouldn't do it, if you ask me. If the student pitches in they certainly get brownie points, but I'm not going to approach the situation as though it's their job.

200hr Wonder · Post by **200hr Wonder** » Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:39 pm

costermonger wrote: I'm all for teaching students *how* to do it, so they can do it in the sort of exceptional circumstance you posted, 200hr Wonder, but in an everyday sort of situation where there's an instructor or rampie around, why should the student be expected to do it? It's in the instructor's best interest that it's done quickly and properly, and it's in the instructor's employer's best interest too.

But costermonger it is in EVERYONES best interest, you as an instructor get more quality time for PGIs, briefings and flying, the boss gets more billing from his instructors and you get more pay. Certainly is great to have rampies around, but where I work I purposely make my booking start at 0730 before the rampies show up before anyone else shows up so that I can get up in the air before it gets busy and kinda miss the crunch time. Guess who de-icies, fuels and fuels or pulls all the planes out of the hanger then? Me and my student.

I really hate this "US" the student and "THEM" rampie/instructor mentality that seems to be going around. Learning to fly is a team effort and guess what as the student you are part of the team. It is not like a customer who goes into a restaurant and is expecting the wait or bus staff to clear the tables and set new silver ware out. The customer aside from consuming the final product of the business have zero vested interest in the restaurant. At a flight school the student is integral to the final product. However I suppose it should not surprise me it is the way of the world. I mean at one job I work we have a full cafeteria paid for by the company for a measly $2 a day. Now don't get me wrong I take full advantage of the product that the chiefs put out and enjoy it all the time, but if you take the last cup of coffee take two minutes to make more, or you go to get drinks out of the fridge ask around before you go, or on a Thursday night when we have a lounge night and the chiefs are gone home take a moment to put the dishes away, wrap up left overs that kind of thing. Very few people at my office do that, and it is the same thing. Common courtesy just like common sense should be called uncommon courtesy. How many of you know the names of the cleaning crew? Say hello to them if you are around when they show up? How many of you think that it is silly for the big four stripe captains at west jet to help groom the aircraft? I was on a WJ flight the other day and saw about four civilian clothed people grooming as I left, and it took me a moment to realize that they must have been off duty staff. Maybe more people need to think about things like that? I also work in IT another heavy service position and guess what I am not your slave. I am there to maintain and fix computers, I am no there to unjam the photocopier, get batteries for you mouse, plug in the phone. How many of you stop to clean out an airplane of trash when you get back if it is not yours? How many people make sure the seat belts are crossed over? Who is sure to fuel your aircraft after the last flight of the day so the first guy out next morning has full tanks? If you don't do the little things I bout you would not even help the elderly lady struggling through the door with a load of parcels by holding open and even forbid taking four more seconds to get to Starbucks for your crapa-frapa-no-foam-whatchamafuckit over priced crap!

Fewh rant over!

rsandor · Post by **rsandor** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:25 am

I really hate this "US" the student and "THEM" rampie/instructor mentality that seems to be going around. Learning to fly is a team effort and guess what as the student you are part of the team. It is not like a customer who goes into a restaurant and is expecting the wait or bus staff to clear the tables and set new silver ware out. The customer aside from consuming the final product of the business have zero vested interest in the restaurant. At a flight school the student is integral to the final product.

But what about when you are no longer a student, and you are a private renter?

If Flightschool A and Flightschool B both charge $120 and hour for a cessna, but one school has a lineman to de-ice in the morning, and in general provides more services for your dollar WHICH FLIGHT SCHOOL ARE YOU GONNA RENT FROM?

hazatude · Post by **hazatude** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:57 am

If you are a customer at Peninsulair I will personally clean the windows of your car and bath your dog while you are flying.

Rudder Bug · Post by **Rudder Bug** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:24 am

I couldn't expect less from ya Haz!

Uncle Leo · Post by **Uncle Leo** » Fri Dec 07, 2007 7:52 am

Agreed. School's responsibility or the instructor's. Not the student. Why not make the student shovel the walkway and sweep the hangar too, as this would be a good skill for your first northern job?

If you need previous experience any of these areas before taking on your first job, you are quite a gift to society.

who di-ices cessna at flight school

who di-ices cessna at flight school

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