China in Bali
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore
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corporate joe
- Rank 8
- Posts: 754
- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 8:18 am
- Location: the coast
China in Bali
The 3 most important things to remember when you're old:
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
This is degrading into an orgy of finger pointing instead of getting something done. It is truly embarrassing how nations can act like children even when faced with something as serious as this. Worse still is that countries like Canada and the United States who proclaim themselves world leaders can be so blindingly stupid and irresponsible.
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tailgunner
- Rank 7
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 4:03 pm
Rockie give your head a shake. What do you want Canada to do? Lets look at this pragmatically. The Liberals signed on to Kyoto, and there was no possible way that Canada would even come close to the targets that we 'bound' ourselves to. What is worse, trying to get accord on a plan that may have a chance at being successful, or signing a pact, thumping our chests, and doing nothing about it for 10 years, with NO hope of ever reaching the lofty targets.
The Europeans backed Kyoto because their lifestyles are totally different than Canada's. Germany has 100 million people in the land mass of Saskatchewan and Alberta. We have 4. They can easily provide mass transit, have fewer roads, and they do not need to heat their homes for 8-9 months of the year. Most of them live in apartments. This isn't because of a noble choice that they made, but rather because of a lack of room and historical building practices. They live close to their work because in Europe everything is relatively close. So one cannot compare the carbon footprint of the average European with Canadian. Nowhere in Europe do they have the infrastructure requirements of Canada. The Trans- Canada highway is way larger than any European road system ( Autobahns icluded), and this network is supported by 30 million Canadians, not 300 million Europeans. Would you take a dip in the Rhine, the Danube, or the Seine rivers? I would put the water quality of almost any river in Canada against those cess-pools. And what of the European boreal forests? Oh ya, they do not have any. How many National park equivalents do they have,or even protected areas? I've been there and have seen the level of "Nature versus Civilization".
Canada needs to be a world leader? ? At what cost? There are more people in Califarnia then in Canada. Mexico city alone has 21 million people. China has 1 200 000 000 vs. 30 000 000. Ya Canada needs to lead the Charge! Do not fool yourself, Kyoto was more about wealth distribution on a socialist agenda then truly climate concerned. The rich pay the poor for carbon credits, Brazil, China, and India do not need to abide by the rules, and we all live happily ever after. OUT>
The Europeans backed Kyoto because their lifestyles are totally different than Canada's. Germany has 100 million people in the land mass of Saskatchewan and Alberta. We have 4. They can easily provide mass transit, have fewer roads, and they do not need to heat their homes for 8-9 months of the year. Most of them live in apartments. This isn't because of a noble choice that they made, but rather because of a lack of room and historical building practices. They live close to their work because in Europe everything is relatively close. So one cannot compare the carbon footprint of the average European with Canadian. Nowhere in Europe do they have the infrastructure requirements of Canada. The Trans- Canada highway is way larger than any European road system ( Autobahns icluded), and this network is supported by 30 million Canadians, not 300 million Europeans. Would you take a dip in the Rhine, the Danube, or the Seine rivers? I would put the water quality of almost any river in Canada against those cess-pools. And what of the European boreal forests? Oh ya, they do not have any. How many National park equivalents do they have,or even protected areas? I've been there and have seen the level of "Nature versus Civilization".
Canada needs to be a world leader? ? At what cost? There are more people in Califarnia then in Canada. Mexico city alone has 21 million people. China has 1 200 000 000 vs. 30 000 000. Ya Canada needs to lead the Charge! Do not fool yourself, Kyoto was more about wealth distribution on a socialist agenda then truly climate concerned. The rich pay the poor for carbon credits, Brazil, China, and India do not need to abide by the rules, and we all live happily ever after. OUT>
Good points, but there is still room for improvement. We are as far as I know the only country in the world with a wide spread use of heated garages and remote starters. How pimpy have we become?
Heated pools, heated driveways,...These are not luxuries for the rich, they are mainstream. Drinking quality water in the loo and the shower...and SUVs...and Winnibagos...
And we ask the Chinese and others to domore???
Heated pools, heated driveways,...These are not luxuries for the rich, they are mainstream. Drinking quality water in the loo and the shower...and SUVs...and Winnibagos...
And we ask the Chinese and others to domore???
Success in life is when the cognac that you drink is older than the women you drink it with.
Give your own head a shake. What does population density have to do with technological improvements to green house gas emitting industries? Cars could be many times better for the environment if there was a will to make them that way and it has nothing to do with how many of them are packed into parking lot. Make an affordable environmental car and China will buy it too. Make environmentally friendly energy as cheap and plentiful as Coal plants and India will use it too. Convince the oil industry that they can make money with environmental energy alternates and you can bet big oil will be in there like a dirty shirt. It has F***all to do with population base.tailgunner wrote:Rockie give your head a shake. What do you want Canada to do? Lets look at this pragmatically. The Liberals signed on to Kyoto, and there was no possible way that Canada would even come close to the targets that we 'bound' ourselves to. What is worse, trying to get accord on a plan that may have a chance at being successful, or signing a pact, thumping our chests, and doing nothing about it for 10 years, with NO hope of ever reaching the lofty targets.
The Europeans backed Kyoto because their lifestyles are totally different than Canada's. Germany has 100 million people in the land mass of Saskatchewan and Alberta. We have 4. They can easily provide mass transit, have fewer roads, and they do not need to heat their homes for 8-9 months of the year. Most of them live in apartments. This isn't because of a noble choice that they made, but rather because of a lack of room and historical building practices. They live close to their work because in Europe everything is relatively close. So one cannot compare the carbon footprint of the average European with Canadian. Nowhere in Europe do they have the infrastructure requirements of Canada. The Trans- Canada highway is way larger than any European road system ( Autobahns icluded), and this network is supported by 30 million Canadians, not 300 million Europeans. Would you take a dip in the Rhine, the Danube, or the Seine rivers? I would put the water quality of almost any river in Canada against those cess-pools. And what of the European boreal forests? Oh ya, they do not have any. How many National park equivalents do they have,or even protected areas? I've been there and have seen the level of "Nature versus Civilization".
Canada needs to be a world leader? ? At what cost? There are more people in Califarnia then in Canada. Mexico city alone has 21 million people. China has 1 200 000 000 vs. 30 000 000. Ya Canada needs to lead the Charge! Do not fool yourself, Kyoto was more about wealth distribution on a socialist agenda then truly climate concerned. The rich pay the poor for carbon credits, Brazil, China, and India do not need to abide by the rules, and we all live happily ever after. OUT>
Kyoto was a disaster because its goals were unachievable even if the country tried...which it didn't. This is not a "everybody or nobody" issue because there will never be everybody on board with this and refusing to do anything until everyone is on board is not showing anything like leadership.
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corporate joe
- Rank 8
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- Joined: Mon May 29, 2006 8:18 am
- Location: the coast
Not to mention that even though there are more highways and distances to cover in Canada, there are more people and cars on the road in Europe at any given time. So the highway argument is a fallacy. More people, more cars, same standard of life (some argue it's better) yet they have less emissions. It's all about political choices and personal efforts. The best way to get people to follow (like China and India) is to lead by example and preach with actions, not just empty words. Canada, regardless of it's size and population, like everyone else, will have to do it's share.
As far as companies making profits by being "green" you couldn't be more right. Every business that takes a good look at carbon emission comes to see it for what it is: gaseous evidence of inefficiency. It costs money to create carbon dioxide, so cutting emissions slashes costs. From DuPont to Dell, companies that learn how to get the same bang from fewer carbon bucks are rewarded with profit beyond their expectations. Carbon disclosure/analysis will bring those inefficiencies (or even better those opportunities) to light. Far from fighting it, the smartest businesses are embracing it with zeal (that is embracing forced carbon disclosure and CO2 efficiency). Their accountants may not be happy, but their shareholders will be.
The only industry that won't benefit as much from it is the oil industry, and like I've said before, their artificial inflation of the need for oil (by forcing it down our throats and using questionable business practices to prevent true competition from other energy sources and technologies) is not only hurting our economy in the long run by hiding the true cost of oil (right now we're only paying for the cost to extract, refine and distribute it, not the side costs that come from burning it), but it is also hurting world stability by creating political turmoil in the world with resource wars (Iraq anyone?).
It's time to evolve and adapt.
As far as companies making profits by being "green" you couldn't be more right. Every business that takes a good look at carbon emission comes to see it for what it is: gaseous evidence of inefficiency. It costs money to create carbon dioxide, so cutting emissions slashes costs. From DuPont to Dell, companies that learn how to get the same bang from fewer carbon bucks are rewarded with profit beyond their expectations. Carbon disclosure/analysis will bring those inefficiencies (or even better those opportunities) to light. Far from fighting it, the smartest businesses are embracing it with zeal (that is embracing forced carbon disclosure and CO2 efficiency). Their accountants may not be happy, but their shareholders will be.
The only industry that won't benefit as much from it is the oil industry, and like I've said before, their artificial inflation of the need for oil (by forcing it down our throats and using questionable business practices to prevent true competition from other energy sources and technologies) is not only hurting our economy in the long run by hiding the true cost of oil (right now we're only paying for the cost to extract, refine and distribute it, not the side costs that come from burning it), but it is also hurting world stability by creating political turmoil in the world with resource wars (Iraq anyone?).
It's time to evolve and adapt.
The 3 most important things to remember when you're old:
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
1) Never pass an opportunity to use a washroom
2) Never waste a hard on
3) Never trust a fart
John Mayer
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newpilotwife
- Rank 1
- Posts: 36
- Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 3:50 pm
I'm in Thunder Bay, don't know of anyone with a heated garage. What's wrong with remote starters? When its -20 to -40 I'd rather get into a warm car than sit in the cold and wait for the car to heat up sufficiently so its safe to drive. Heated pool and heated driveways? Please, if you have those, will you adopt me?
Expat wrote:Good points, but there is still room for improvement. We are as far as I know the only country in the world with a wide spread use of heated garages and remote starters. How pimpy have we become?
Heated pools, heated driveways,...These are not luxuries for the rich, they are mainstream. Drinking quality water in the loo and the shower...and SUVs...and Winnibagos...
And we ask the Chinese and others to domore???
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tailgunner
- Rank 7
- Posts: 501
- Joined: Mon May 17, 2004 4:03 pm
I respectfully disagree. We all want clean water and clean air the real question is how to achieve these goals. Ignoring China, India,Brazil, and the US makes Kyoto usless and pointless. Kyoto is dead. It was dead from the start because of the countries NOT involved. We should be pragmatic move on to measures that may work.
Canada should get out from Kyoto as soon as we can. The Europeans pressed for it because at the time of its signing 1991-92, they would have been given huge credits for " greenng" up. How? because they were planning to close most of the heavily poluting former soviet plants in eastern Europe ( Read Lorne Gunther's editorial, Edmonton Journal December 8th), and under Kyoto would be given huge credits for that.
Now many are demanding that WE live up to our obligations. How?
Energy in all of its forms drives the Canadian economy. We can design the world's most fuel efficient car and guess what, the Chinese would still not buy it. Nationalism and economics play huge roles. That is why Americans tend to buy made in America. Germans will not drive French cars, and Buzz Hargrove still has a job!
Economics are behind these grand "enviromental"schemes. Russia would become a net gainer under Kyoto...HMMMM. Canada a huge net loser. Whose enviroment is in better condition? I bet ours every time. Brazil, India , and China would also be huge gainers under Kyoto......hmmm. I see economics again. Flame away!, but do it with recycled newspaper, and low emission ethonol based fuel!
Canada should get out from Kyoto as soon as we can. The Europeans pressed for it because at the time of its signing 1991-92, they would have been given huge credits for " greenng" up. How? because they were planning to close most of the heavily poluting former soviet plants in eastern Europe ( Read Lorne Gunther's editorial, Edmonton Journal December 8th), and under Kyoto would be given huge credits for that.
Now many are demanding that WE live up to our obligations. How?
Energy in all of its forms drives the Canadian economy. We can design the world's most fuel efficient car and guess what, the Chinese would still not buy it. Nationalism and economics play huge roles. That is why Americans tend to buy made in America. Germans will not drive French cars, and Buzz Hargrove still has a job!
Economics are behind these grand "enviromental"schemes. Russia would become a net gainer under Kyoto...HMMMM. Canada a huge net loser. Whose enviroment is in better condition? I bet ours every time. Brazil, India , and China would also be huge gainers under Kyoto......hmmm. I see economics again. Flame away!, but do it with recycled newspaper, and low emission ethonol based fuel!
winter can be so uncivilized.
