MPL-Multicrew Pilot Licence

[Check Pilot]

There seems to be no new comment thread regarding the probable introduction of this new Canadian Licence which will be provided by Approved Training Organizations (ATO's).

[Kejowi]

I've been trying to get info on this thing. I've only heard rumor but if what i have heard is true, it sounds a little frightening....both as a pilot who has worked hard to be close to getting his 'A', and as a passenger. Can u shed any light on the details of what this thing means?

[The Wizard of OZ]

Sounds like something the fine folks managing Jazz are in the market for.

[Ralliart]

http://www.icao.int/icao/en/trivia/peltrgFAQ.htm#31

Sounds like a pretty stupid idea to me.

Do I have to hold a MPL to be a co-pilot on a muti-crew aeroplane?

No, the co-pilot on a multi-crew aeroplane can hold either a MPL or a CPL endorsed with an instrument rating and a type rating on a multi-crew aircraft.

What's the point then? It'll be about as useful as getting a college aviation diploma compared to private flight training.........not very.

What are the differences between the CPL and the MPL?

For the purposes of operating multi-crew aircraft, the privileges of a MPL are equivalent to those of CPL endorsed with an instrument rating and a type rating on a multi-crew aircraft. However, and because the MPL is geared toward operation of multi-crew airplane, an MPL pilot cannot generally fly on single pilot aeroplane without meeting additional requirements. For example, MPL holders cannot exercise the privileges of a CPL and instrument ratings on single pilot aeroplane without meeting specific actual flight time and flight instruction requirements.

You gotta be kidding me!

[Highsea]

I'm lost with this one........... what is the point of MPL.......

[Gurundu the Rat]

I'm lost with this one........... what is the point of MPL.......

It's to further degrade your working conditions so that the corporate mafia can get cheap pilots. Literally a dime a dozen.

[rsandor]

MPL = overcomplicated solution to a non-existing problem.

[Gurundu the Rat]

I'm lost with this one........... what is the point of MPL.......

It's to further degrade your working conditions so that the corporate mafia can get cheap pilots. Literally a dime a dozen.

[snaproll20]

so, a person doing simulator training with an MPL
would be SIMPL ?

[fougapilot]

MCL is a Bandaid. It is nothing more then a solution ICAO came up as a short term fix for a Worldwide problem, NOT a Canadian problem.

A Multi-Crew Licence candidate will undergo intensive training in both class room and simulator in order to achieve First Officer status on a specific airplane type for a specific airline. Candidates will not be trained to fly airplanes, they will be trained to fly ONE type of airplane in accordance with ONE company SOP. Should a candidate WANT an upgrade to a Capt position, he/she will need to transfer his/hers MCL into a CPL by going back to a local flight school and learn to fly airplanes, then build the PIC time required to achieve ATPL qualifications.

MCL will be very popular in developing regions (read ASIA here) where candidates will be recruited from the street by airlines and then trained to be FO on one type of airplane operated by said airline. I continue to believe that countries like Canada will continue to train its pilots the old fashion way.

Cheers,

F

[hawker driver]

MPL = Monkey Pilot License ?

Don't forget who went into space before the first man.

[The Old Fogducker]

Folks:

One thing about the requirements for this "new" IACO Licence is the applicant must be sponsored "up front" by an airline. I was briefed that the estimated cost of putting an applicant through the program was $250,000. Its not a program for "The Average Joe" off the street that decides he wants to get into the program just because it seems like a great way to avoid working his way up the typical Canadian Pilot ladder of career advancement. It won't be the Perimeters, Transwests, PEI Air, Canjets, Voyageurs of the industry who will be taking part in this training program.

In my opinion, it has nothing to do with Canadian pilots except possibly those very, very few Instructors who may eventually be deemed to "have what it takes" to teach the material to what will in reality, be mostly foreign students. For a place like CAE, Bombardier, FSI, etc there might be an opportunity to establish an internationally recognized training centre, but it sure won't mean anything to the flight school division of "Grovel Airways."

The bottom would have to really, really drop out of the Canuck pilot supply stream for a company to spend somewhere in the vicinity of a quarter million to obtain warm flesh for the right seat.

The beancounters will no doubt have considerable input in the decision to select and send a candidate to the MCPL flight school. I just can't see it being a cost effective program for a carrier like Air Canada, Jazz, or WestJet to obtain staff by this method. The "complaint" that Jazz can't find suitably qualified applicants is completely of their own doing, in response to a Cdn public not wanting to pay an extra buck per seat per leg to pay for what "we" as aviation folks might call a suitably qualified crew. Air Canada's complaint is that they need to provide extra training in the sim to bring applicants up to the required standard to be released to the line. What is more expensive and less risky bet for a cool 250 G's ... maybe an extra 10 hours in the box starting at 0300 or throwing the present baby out with the bathwater and taking a sharp zero-time youngster off the street with no more than some good school marks and a good COG Test score? With the low profit margins in this industry, there will be no contest. The beancounters will win. It will be business as usual in spite of the introduction of the MCPL.

Fog

[Dominic220]

so... this may be a shot in the dark... but where's the problem that this is suppose to solve, and by the time you're where a "MPL" would be needed, you should have already had your MIFR, nes pas?

[trey kule]

I am told , by those who suppossedly know about this that the MPL recognizes that modernaircraft with their back up systems, and back up systems for their back up systems, and computers galore simply only need one pilot (Captain), and one assistant.
I have been harping on this forum for two years to try and get the new pilots coming up to recognize this was coming. These " assts (not 'pilots)" are not intended to move up the ladder to the left seat. The left seats will be filled, as they are now, by qualified and experienced pilots, although I understand one or two of the European carriers are considering joining up with a small regional to put their MPL.s back on line for some PIC experience. If past history means anything, their egos will be to big to fit into the smaller cockpits. We will have to wait and see.

And it will result in rather large crew cost savings.

i think if you really love to fly, go the old fashioned route. It is an adventure.

[fougapilot]

but where's the problem that this is suppose to solve, and by the time you're where a "MPL" would be needed, you should have already had your MIFR, nes pas?

D220,

The problem is not here. The problem is mainly in Asia where airline growth is so rapid that the normal training pattern (private, connercial, ifr, work for a few years to get the hours for an ATPL...) is just too slow. Leaving too many airlines with Jets grounded.

The logic is to take recruits from the street and train them to fly one type of airplane for one airline. This way, you can have a brand new right seater in less then 24months.

The benefits for the airlines are great; quickly train F/O, high quality training (since the airline controls each training session) and then they have total control over your career! How much of a bargaining chip do you have in your pocket when your license is limited to one type of airplane and one employer!!! You can't even send your resume to the competition, you don't have a valid license... Plus if the airline decides to get rid of that specific type...

Benefit for the candidate; direct entry in a big jet.

Draw back for the candidate; Low pay (because the airline wants to offset the training cost), Zero chance of ever seeing a left seat (my contact even tells me that a MPL holder will not be able to log his/her time!!!). Slight or zero chance of changing equipment.

Keep going to the flight schools guys...

F

[hawker driver]

The benefits for the airlines are great; quickly train F/O, high quality training (since the airline controls each training session) and then they have total control over your career![/b] How much of a bargaining chip do you have in your pocket when your license is limited to one type of airplane and one employer!!! You can't even send your resume to the competition, you don't have a valid license...

F

BINGO !!!!!!!!!

You hit the nail right on the head. What do you do as a MPL co pilot when management tells you they are cutting your pay on A320 from $80K a year to $28K per year.
What happens if the airlines goes bankrupt? Your license is then worthless to any other airline.

You just sold your soul/career to the devil

[trey kule]

fouga.

i went to check out that logging of time. No one here had ever heard the question come up before. Is your source reliable? Or more importantly, do you have a reference for that.
It is a very intresting situation if the proposed MPL's do not allow time to be logged.

[fougapilot]

Turkey,

I do not have any reference, only what I heard from a friend (whom is the former manager of a major simulator training center) who attended an ICAO conference on the subject. To be honest I was surprised when I heard it, but until TC and other regulatory bodies come up with official regulations you and I will have to wait.

Remember guys, ICAO doesn't have the power to write laws. They can only make recommendations that countries may choose to follow or ignore. Most countries do not follow ICAO's recommendations 100% (Canada included)

Cheers,

F

[Kejowi]

Thanks to everyone who responded to this (good info fougapilot). At least it looks like all the hard work we are putting in isn't going to waste.

Cheers all....

[wxnut]

Sounds like something the fine folks managing Jazz are in the market for.

If you remember the posts put forward regarding this topic strongly emphasized that this license is being produced to put pilots into flight line much faster due to the increasing demands.

I honestly would doubt that a guy coming off a King Air sim with 64 hours of CRM practice would even get as much as a fart through any mainlines doors. If it's for the purpose of regional jets ... well we already have something of the similar. Jet U down in florida does that 16 week program and actually gets you a regional interview. That's already a good start for somebody who has a mommy and a daddy who could pay for housing and the lifestyle for the F/O years. So it's not like the opportunity's not already there. But let's say the MPL becomes the new revolution of flight training. How many competitive airlines like ACA would you seriously see accepting those as a qualification to get hired? If guys are getting booted due to degrees I would highly doubt that people with MPL would get in. Plus, would MPL age requirements be 18? Don't majors normally look for people from ages 21 and up ?

Questions such as how about transitioning from MPL to ATPL ... would that even work? or would you need a CPL ? I mean this MPL would have to be a really concise program to teach all the basics of PPL, CPL, ME Rating, Night Rating, as well as Instrument rating. 200 hours of flight time versus 64 sim hours ? Or for the future ATPL candidate 64 hours versus 1500 hrs along with the breakdowns ? No matter how high the demands are in countries other than Canada and the States, i doubt a 64 hour wonder would be flying a 737 for any company. There's a reason why airlines in extreme demand are hiring 250 hour people. You never see them hiring a 60 hour guy. Think about it you guys. All the work you've done will not go to waste either way.

To be honest I'd be superbly surprised if I saw this MPL even being used in a place like North America. Maybe in a place like South Africa where you can become a 747 pilot in no time. The media always expresses large vocabulary and an action-based perspective. We all know it could all be as much as Bull Shit concerning aviation in North America.

My 2 cents !

[tdawe]

I got my copy of ASL today. Having personally seen the wreckage of the BV-107 I figured that would be the scariest thing I saw in there.

Until I read the article on the MPL. Is Transport really gonna do this? really?

I'm scared.

[F,D and H]

Little off topic here, I'm not trolling...

These 250 hour wonders hired by Jazz...hypothetically say the industry goes to shits again, massive layoffs at Jazz, is the guy with 2000tt, 1750 in the right seat of a Dash
1)Is he usefull anywhere else?(except maybe in the right seat of another Dash but good luck finding that in a bad market)
2)As mentioned, will his head fit in a Ho or a 90?
3)Would you hire him?

Just something to think of guys, best to work your way into these positions...

[C-GGGQ]

everyone get the latest transport safety letter, has all about that stupid license in it. All i can say is oh boy!

[THEICEMAN]

everyone get the latest transport safety letter, has all about that stupid license in it. All i can say is oh boy!

Ya I got it to.....this is what I find most ridiculous about this MPL program:

Because of reductions in traditionally-prescribed actual flight time exposure requirements, there are anticipated to be some restrictions attached to the MPL that are not necessarily associated with the more familiar pilot license. For instance, holders of an MPL will only be able to exercise the priviledge of their instrument rating while flying as a co-pilot. Furthermore, depending upon the makeup of the completed MPL training program, the holder may not have achieved all the prescribed requirements necessary to obtain a private pilot license. This situation could therefor, prohibit a commercial airline pilot who is type rated on a Dash-8, for instance, from flying solo in a Cessna 172.

Wow! Is this the direction we are going in?

I think that the ICAO is introducing the MPL in the wrong way. Instead of introducing it as a complete program that trains a pilot from day one, why don't they introduce it as a rating? After you complete a ppl, M/IFR & CPL, then you can be eligible for an MPL.
What do you guys think?

[trey kule]

I also read what was in the newest Safety Letter. a couple of things got my attention.
these "pilots" are truely going to be Captain's assistants, and, more importantly, what is their effect going to be on general aviation. flight schools are apparently already going begging for instructors. What will happen when we stream some potential pilots out of the pool?

I am not sure that the short term here will not be a decade or more as their still is a fairly large pool of qualified, or soon to be qualified capts..Will be interesting with a new captain and a 10,000 hour FO who cant fly solo.