Boeing Article
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, Right Seat Captain, lilfssister, North Shore
Boeing Article
Flight schools accelerate training to meet growing demand for pilots
Embry-Riddle and a new academy in Sanford are ramping up training to fill an impending pilot shortage.
Orlando Sentinel 01/02/2008
Author: Robert Perez
(Copyright 2007 by The Orlando Sentinel)
SANFORD - Delta Connection Academy's new 27,000-square-foot hangar with its high-tech training center is likely to be a busy place for the foreseeable future.
The facility, which opened last month at the Orlando Sanford International Airport, will be the academy's heart of pilot training during the next few years, a time that promises to be one of the busiest in decades for flight schools.
The aviation industry is facing a crisis, in which demand for pilots could soon outstrip supply. More than 30,000 pilots will reach mandatory retirement age in the next 10 years. Many of those are Vietnam-era veterans trained to fly by the military.
At the same time, aviation markets in China and India are rapidly expanding, and the domestic airline industry, which has finally rebounded after 9-11, is hungry for new pilots.
Aviation-industry officials predict the need for as many as 18,000 new pilots annually through 2024. That is likely to strain the existing network of flight schools and aeronautical universities that prepare the next generation of pilots.
There are 1,765 student pilots in Central Florida, according to Federal Aviation Administration records. The lion's share of them are enrolled at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach. Nationally, there are nearly 85,000 student pilots, including more than 5,000 foreign students.
Embry-Riddle has graduated an average of 280 pilots from its aeronautical-science program annually since 1998. Delta Connection produces about 150 pilots a year.
Delta Connection is banking on a training program that stresses technology to train and graduate in as little as nine months pilots who are ready to take the controls of regional jets with little additional training.
"What we try to do is use emerging technology to produce experienced and qualified pilots," said John McGann, Delta Connection's business development director.
That means state-of-the-art simulators that duplicate the in-cockpit environment of the Cirrus SR20, the twin-engine prop training planes parked on the flight line. The simulators allow students to train to the limits of the aircraft without having to be airborne.
"We can do things in the simulator that you wouldn't want to try in an airplane," McGann said.
The Delta Connection curriculum includes training for recovering out-of-control aircraft, for managing a crew, and for dealing with hypoxia -- lack of oxygen to the body at high altitude.
Students then get additional training in a simulator that mimics the smaller jets popular with regional carriers such as ASA, ComAir and American Eagle.
Just an hour north of Delta Connection Academy, Embry-Riddle is taking a similar approach for its students, even though the school offers full four-year degrees.
The demand for pilots has accelerated the flight training portion of the school's curriculum by about a year, said Frank Ayers, chairman of Embry-Riddle's flight department.
Like Delta Connection, Embry-Riddle offers state-of-the-art simulators that provide students in-cockpit environments. The twin-engine Diamond DA42 aircraft used for flight training was selected for its jetlike handling, Ayers said.
The accelerated training gives upperclassmen the opportunity to work as flight instructors at the university while they finish their degrees. It also provides the university with a pool of instructors less likely to be lured away by airlines desperate for pilots.
Despite that, the number of recruiting classes for instructors has jumped from about three a year to more than a dozen, Ayers said. The university pays $3,500 bonuses to flight instructors who agree to remain a year. Still, about half of the school's 165 instructors are juniors and seniors at the university, Ayers said.
Tim Brady, dean of the university's college of aviation, said cooperation between the airlines and the school is crucial as the demand for pilots increases. That's why Embry-Riddle will host a summit in March to discuss the effects of the pilot shortage on the industry.
"We need to have a frank discussion about how we provide them the pilots they need while maintaining our instructors rather than them taking all the seed corn," he said.
One industry observer said such cooperation seems unlikely. Beyond the desire of new pilots to get their careers moving, the airlines soon will become desperate for pilots, said Kit Darby, president and publisher of AIR Inc., an aviation career-information publisher.
"You are going to start seeing airlines paying for some part of a pilot's initial training and may get to where the airline pays for all their training," he said. "The last time that happened was in the 1960s."
Embry-Riddle and a new academy in Sanford are ramping up training to fill an impending pilot shortage.
Orlando Sentinel 01/02/2008
Author: Robert Perez
(Copyright 2007 by The Orlando Sentinel)
SANFORD - Delta Connection Academy's new 27,000-square-foot hangar with its high-tech training center is likely to be a busy place for the foreseeable future.
The facility, which opened last month at the Orlando Sanford International Airport, will be the academy's heart of pilot training during the next few years, a time that promises to be one of the busiest in decades for flight schools.
The aviation industry is facing a crisis, in which demand for pilots could soon outstrip supply. More than 30,000 pilots will reach mandatory retirement age in the next 10 years. Many of those are Vietnam-era veterans trained to fly by the military.
At the same time, aviation markets in China and India are rapidly expanding, and the domestic airline industry, which has finally rebounded after 9-11, is hungry for new pilots.
Aviation-industry officials predict the need for as many as 18,000 new pilots annually through 2024. That is likely to strain the existing network of flight schools and aeronautical universities that prepare the next generation of pilots.
There are 1,765 student pilots in Central Florida, according to Federal Aviation Administration records. The lion's share of them are enrolled at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University in Daytona Beach. Nationally, there are nearly 85,000 student pilots, including more than 5,000 foreign students.
Embry-Riddle has graduated an average of 280 pilots from its aeronautical-science program annually since 1998. Delta Connection produces about 150 pilots a year.
Delta Connection is banking on a training program that stresses technology to train and graduate in as little as nine months pilots who are ready to take the controls of regional jets with little additional training.
"What we try to do is use emerging technology to produce experienced and qualified pilots," said John McGann, Delta Connection's business development director.
That means state-of-the-art simulators that duplicate the in-cockpit environment of the Cirrus SR20, the twin-engine prop training planes parked on the flight line. The simulators allow students to train to the limits of the aircraft without having to be airborne.
"We can do things in the simulator that you wouldn't want to try in an airplane," McGann said.
The Delta Connection curriculum includes training for recovering out-of-control aircraft, for managing a crew, and for dealing with hypoxia -- lack of oxygen to the body at high altitude.
Students then get additional training in a simulator that mimics the smaller jets popular with regional carriers such as ASA, ComAir and American Eagle.
Just an hour north of Delta Connection Academy, Embry-Riddle is taking a similar approach for its students, even though the school offers full four-year degrees.
The demand for pilots has accelerated the flight training portion of the school's curriculum by about a year, said Frank Ayers, chairman of Embry-Riddle's flight department.
Like Delta Connection, Embry-Riddle offers state-of-the-art simulators that provide students in-cockpit environments. The twin-engine Diamond DA42 aircraft used for flight training was selected for its jetlike handling, Ayers said.
The accelerated training gives upperclassmen the opportunity to work as flight instructors at the university while they finish their degrees. It also provides the university with a pool of instructors less likely to be lured away by airlines desperate for pilots.
Despite that, the number of recruiting classes for instructors has jumped from about three a year to more than a dozen, Ayers said. The university pays $3,500 bonuses to flight instructors who agree to remain a year. Still, about half of the school's 165 instructors are juniors and seniors at the university, Ayers said.
Tim Brady, dean of the university's college of aviation, said cooperation between the airlines and the school is crucial as the demand for pilots increases. That's why Embry-Riddle will host a summit in March to discuss the effects of the pilot shortage on the industry.
"We need to have a frank discussion about how we provide them the pilots they need while maintaining our instructors rather than them taking all the seed corn," he said.
One industry observer said such cooperation seems unlikely. Beyond the desire of new pilots to get their careers moving, the airlines soon will become desperate for pilots, said Kit Darby, president and publisher of AIR Inc., an aviation career-information publisher.
"You are going to start seeing airlines paying for some part of a pilot's initial training and may get to where the airline pays for all their training," he said. "The last time that happened was in the 1960s."
"What's it doing now?"
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
"Fly low and slow and throttle back in the turns."
Re: Boeing Article
anybody feel like commenting? I'm not viable or experienced to say to what poin the possiblities about an eventual pilot training paid program would be, yet, it would be very nice... yet the competition level would arise...I'd like to see pilots then try to be a pilot without university...airline companies paying for training...good luck to those that only have high school... 

Because the sky is the limit...!
-
- Rank 8
- Posts: 896
- Joined: Sat Dec 10, 2005 12:12 am
- Location: Cyberspace
Re: Boeing Article
so....30,000 pilots retiring in the next 10 years & currently 85,000 student pilots in the US....now I know a lot of those students will never make it to commercial standard...but still I don't see this huge shortage they keep talk'n about.

-
- Rank 1
- Posts: 43
- Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2007 4:04 pm
Re: Boeing Article
I understand you are frustrated because you lost 5 years of possible flying while pushing pencils in a university but please, have some respect for the poeple who chose the other way.RIMsky wrote:anybody feel like commenting? I'm not viable or experienced to say to what poin the possiblities about an eventual pilot training paid program would be, yet, it would be very nice... yet the competition level would arise...I'd like to see pilots then try to be a pilot without university...airline companies paying for training...good luck to those that only have high school...
Thanks
Re: Boeing Article
Oh like your response is any more respectful. Come on, have some respect for people who went to university.Night-Hawk wrote:
I understand you are frustrated because you lost 5 years of possible flying while pushing pencils in a university but please, have some respect for the poeple who chose the other way.
Thanks
Re: Boeing Article
University is nice - god, can you get laid there a lot - but
it has precious little to do with flying an airplane.
I think I am being honest when I say that absolutely
nothing which is taught at a University level,
is a pre-requisite for operating an airplane, or any
other similar heavy equipment.
All the academics required for being a pilot are
covered in high school.
FWIW. I hold both a BSc (Engineering, Queen's
University at Kingston) and an ATPL.
Now, if you want to be an experimental test
pilot, sure, get a (relevant) degree. However,
someone with an Engineering degree flying
a Boeing is like someone with a Phd in Physics
pushing a broom in the lab. I'm sure it happens
but I suspect that most people would agree that
it is a tremendously sub-optimal use of resources.
it has precious little to do with flying an airplane.
I think I am being honest when I say that absolutely
nothing which is taught at a University level,
is a pre-requisite for operating an airplane, or any
other similar heavy equipment.
All the academics required for being a pilot are
covered in high school.
FWIW. I hold both a BSc (Engineering, Queen's
University at Kingston) and an ATPL.
Now, if you want to be an experimental test
pilot, sure, get a (relevant) degree. However,
someone with an Engineering degree flying
a Boeing is like someone with a Phd in Physics
pushing a broom in the lab. I'm sure it happens
but I suspect that most people would agree that
it is a tremendously sub-optimal use of resources.
Re: Boeing Article
I agree that having a university education doesn't necessarily help you as a pilot. I have found, out of the people in my program and now my students, the ones who have some sort of post secondary education generally have less trouble with the academics. This might might be just b/c they maybe a little older (more disciplined) or just more practiced in how to study. This seems to be the general trend, I have seen exceptions.
-
- Rank 6
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am
Re: Boeing Article
In a practical sense you don't need any academic education to fly a plane.
I'll bet you half the Captains at Air Canada don't even have Grade 12. I think Cat Driver mentioned he only had Grade 6, and yet he managed to fly a 767 without crashing it.
Frankly, if you were too well educated, you'd probably get too bored too quickly as lowly line pilot.
As for the so-called pilot shortage: Not that there was any real shortage to begin with the exception of perhaps some very localized situations, but the recession that is enveloping the west will take care of any notions of shortage, real or imagined.
I know it's not what the newbies and people in flight training want to hear, but having lived through recessions before, and having seen what they do to airlines and pilots... well, let's say it ain't pretty.
I'll bet you half the Captains at Air Canada don't even have Grade 12. I think Cat Driver mentioned he only had Grade 6, and yet he managed to fly a 767 without crashing it.
Frankly, if you were too well educated, you'd probably get too bored too quickly as lowly line pilot.
As for the so-called pilot shortage: Not that there was any real shortage to begin with the exception of perhaps some very localized situations, but the recession that is enveloping the west will take care of any notions of shortage, real or imagined.
I know it's not what the newbies and people in flight training want to hear, but having lived through recessions before, and having seen what they do to airlines and pilots... well, let's say it ain't pretty.
- Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Boeing Article
I went all the way through grade eight!I think Cat Driver mentioned he only had Grade 6,
To be a pilot you must be able to read and write and being able to tell different colors is an asset.
Far more important than formal education is having the ability to make good decisions and having the self confidence in your decision making to walk away from any situation where someone is trying to intimidate you into accepting risks that you are not comfortable with.
Airplanes were designed to the lowest common denominator IQ and motor skills, so why would you need a university degree to fly one?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
-
- Rank 6
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am
Re: Boeing Article
I would argue you need a uni degree not because you need it to fly the plane (that's total BS), but you need it to regulate the supply of pilots and accordingly to keep Terms and Conditions high.
You see pilots working for Tim Horton's wages at place like Central Mountain Air, and all the Regionals down in the US, and even now with some of the bigger airlines where you see A320 pilots in the US working for wages akin to that of the company secretary.
Or let's lets talk about Europe, where it's basically par for the course that if you want a job you have to buy a very expensive type rating, and then you have to buy 50 to 500 hours line training (think Regency times 1000).
The guys like O'Leary over at Ryanair must just laugh themselves to death when they see what pilots do.
This a result of pilots not regulating themselves like other professions, and setting up bars to entry. Too many pilots = race to the bottom.
Could you imagine what conditions would be like for doctors and lawyers and CGA, etc., if they applied the same thinking that prevails in many circles in aviation, namely, that anyone with the "dream" of becoming a doctor should be allowed to become one.
The medical profession would go to sh*te if it applied the way aviation works.
So my point is: Do you need a degree to fly a plane, of course not. Do you need a degree to help keep T & C's for pilots high, it would help a lot.
You see pilots working for Tim Horton's wages at place like Central Mountain Air, and all the Regionals down in the US, and even now with some of the bigger airlines where you see A320 pilots in the US working for wages akin to that of the company secretary.
Or let's lets talk about Europe, where it's basically par for the course that if you want a job you have to buy a very expensive type rating, and then you have to buy 50 to 500 hours line training (think Regency times 1000).
The guys like O'Leary over at Ryanair must just laugh themselves to death when they see what pilots do.
This a result of pilots not regulating themselves like other professions, and setting up bars to entry. Too many pilots = race to the bottom.
Could you imagine what conditions would be like for doctors and lawyers and CGA, etc., if they applied the same thinking that prevails in many circles in aviation, namely, that anyone with the "dream" of becoming a doctor should be allowed to become one.
The medical profession would go to sh*te if it applied the way aviation works.
So my point is: Do you need a degree to fly a plane, of course not. Do you need a degree to help keep T & C's for pilots high, it would help a lot.
Re: Boeing Article
I have talked to a lot of flight instructors and from they way they tell it esp at the air cadet level that the Top academic performer is rarely the Top stick. Just cuz u can put something on a piece of paper does not mean you can apply it in the real world.
- Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: Boeing Article
That is because the two disciplines have nothing in common.the Top academic performer is rarely the Top stick.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
Re: Boeing Article
.
Last edited by BoostedNihilist on Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Boeing Article
.
Last edited by BoostedNihilist on Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
-
- Rank 6
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am
Re: Boeing Article
Hahaha, there are simply too many non sequitors there to even begin.
At any rate, tell me this:
How do you explain the fact that companies like CMA have absolutely no problem finding guys willing to work for $22K a year?
How do you explain the fact that in Europe, companies like Ryanair can make pilots bring their checkbooks to job interviews? I forget what you have to pay Ryanair to work for them, but it's a pretty large chunk of Euros.
How do you explain this company: http://www.eaglejet.net
It's simple: You have more pilots than seats. And these are supposed to the "good times".
I hate to see what things are going to look like when the Recession really starts to bite....
At any rate, tell me this:
How do you explain the fact that companies like CMA have absolutely no problem finding guys willing to work for $22K a year?
How do you explain the fact that in Europe, companies like Ryanair can make pilots bring their checkbooks to job interviews? I forget what you have to pay Ryanair to work for them, but it's a pretty large chunk of Euros.
How do you explain this company: http://www.eaglejet.net
It's simple: You have more pilots than seats. And these are supposed to the "good times".
I hate to see what things are going to look like when the Recession really starts to bite....
Re: Boeing Article
.
Last edited by BoostedNihilist on Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Boeing Article
Er, no. If the price is driven too low by excess supply ofIf all the men at the top decide that a 747 pilot is worth 100 dollars a flight, then that is what they are worth, and pilots will take it because PEOPLE NEED FOOD AND SHELTER TO LIVE
the commodity (which in your example is qualified B747
pilots) then pilots will switch careers to something that
pays better.
I think you need to learn some more about economics.
Start here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
People are often confused by the fact that entry
level pilots will work for peanuts (and often even
will pay foir their job) because they are still
acquiring necessary experience, for them to be
fully-qualified professionals.
For example, if a king air pilots flies an hour, he
is not only compensated by the employer with
so many dollars, he is also compensated with
another hour in his logbook, of which he needs
(eg) 5000 to apply to the majors.
Now, on the other side of the fence ....
Once a pilot makes it to the majors, and
he is a fully-qualified professional pilot, he
has a union which arranges for him to be
paid more than the market value
of his commodity. Click on:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economic_rent
Hope this helps.
Do keep in mind that pilots start flying
when they are young because they love
it, but they keep flying when they are
older because of the money.
Re: Boeing Article
.
Last edited by BoostedNihilist on Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Boeing Article
.
Last edited by BoostedNihilist on Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Boeing Article
.
Last edited by BoostedNihilist on Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Boeing Article
Really? I fear that not everyone would agree with you.labor is not a commidity (sic)
If we look at the wiki's definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commodity
Let's look at 100 B747-qualified pilots.A commodity is anything for which there is demand, but which is supplied without qualitative differentiation across a given market
They all look pretty interchangeable to me -
there would appear to be no qualitative
differentiation between them. You can
substitute one for the other pretty freely.
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck,
and quacks like a duck, well ....
Re: Boeing Article
.
Last edited by BoostedNihilist on Wed Dec 09, 2009 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Boeing Article
My apologies - it was not meant as a jab.
It has been my experience that many pilots are
astonishingly under-educated in many areas that
directly affect them. It has nothing to do with
a lack of intelligence, merely a lack of education.
IMHO, a course in economics should be a pre-requisite
for the issuance of an ATPL
It has been my experience that many pilots are
astonishingly under-educated in many areas that
directly affect them. It has nothing to do with
a lack of intelligence, merely a lack of education.
IMHO, a course in economics should be a pre-requisite
for the issuance of an ATPL

-
- Rank 6
- Posts: 481
- Joined: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:48 am
Re: Boeing Article
Yes, Hedley, but if pilots studied economics, and learned that in the 100 year history of aviation the total profit has been about $5, they'd probably switch careers.
I think this YouTube video puts it all in perspective.
As was mentioned above, there are a mix of factors, but supply is the driving one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A
I think this YouTube video puts it all in perspective.
As was mentioned above, there are a mix of factors, but supply is the driving one.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RayMaswju1A