Cleared on course

[PCAS]

A question for all you good guys working ATS.

If ATC gives you the clearance "cleared on course" on departure, are they expecting you to turn to fly direct to the nearest fix on your route OR are they expecting you to turn and reintercept your course from the departure aerodrome to the fix? I'm thinking that the latter is incorrect.

[FamilyGuy]

Interesting question that has never been asked before.......(I'll flame you gently )

I'll answer your question with a question:

What is "on course"?

If the "on course" you filed was airport direct VOR J123 etc then you intercept the airport direct VOR track and proceed "on course" of course unless a horse....

If your filed "on course" is airport airport SID direct VOR J123 etc then on course could mean left/right turn direct VOR on course.

If in doubt ASK THE CONTROLLER!

If anyone thinks it doesn't matter, well, get freindly with your neighborhodd TC feller - he will be callin soon.

Good on you PCAS for asking. Bad on you for not doing a search........

[Liquid Charlie]

Funny this should come up just now -- we were talking about this very thing last night -- situation is this:

Filed airport direct to destination -- no nav aids in between -- no sid -- what is ATC expecting you to do -- A/ intercept the direct track between the 2 airports

B/ proceed direct from the roll out point in the departure turn

My experience is I get "A" from pilots and "B" from controllers when asked -- but I have also had the opposite -- so which is correct --

Same situation from a sid and you get "turn" cleared on course -- and obviously -- no terminal radar but in radar environment such as YZF and YFB

Brings me to the next question

If you are cleared direct to destination I know most guys will select direct to the airport but I believe the expectation is to the VOR -- or the primary nav aid if there is no vor --

flame proof suit on

PS after doing a search I'm still in the dark -- enlighten me -- gently

[dangerous]

What if your departure airport is not near any navaids/intersections, but is close to an airway? Is it common to get a clearance such as: "departure airport V999 YXX ..."

In that case, do you just intercept V999 at whatever angle you want?

[PCAS]

Sorry family guy for not using the search function first, I didn't intend on annoying anyone.

I didn't realise that ATC would expect you to file a SID in your FLIGHT PLAN. I figured your flight planned route would be along the lines of XXX VOR J123 CYXX. However, lets say ATC included the SID in the CLEARANCE, vectored you away from your course then cleared you "on course". Perhaps I'm coming up with a scenario that wouldn't ever happen. The clearance would maybe be "direct XXX VOR on course" as opposed to just "on course".

[Flying Low]

I think this is where common sense comes in. Cleared on course is what you filed. If you filed direct between two airports (lets say Thunder Bay and an airport north of there) and your clearance was, "Thunder bay 5 departure off 07, left turn on course, sqawk 1234." Noise requires you to get to 3400' feet before any turns. Different aircraft will climb at different rates therefore the ony way to know exactly where you are going to be is to have you turn back to the track between CYQT and your destination airport. More than likely, once in the air, you will be cleared direct but until then you follow the track on the map that you filed which means taking a cut back to the track. Use the aforementioned common sense...you don't have to do a 90 degree cut.

[Rudy]

Are you ATC Flying Low? I've flown out of YQT for years and when "cleared on course" I go present position direct. Have I been doing something wrong all this time and no one has called me on it?

[Apache64_]

I believe you are supposed to intercept the filed routing ie V304 - UDE - YBR or what have you. If you have filed a direct then it is the direct track from navaid to navaid.

I still love the cleared direct destination clearance. Some want you to request present position direct, some think they have just cleared you present position direct destination. (sorry if this hijacks the thread)

So when in Doubt I ask.

Cheers

Apache

[SmokinJoe]

What I do, may be wrong but I hope not. Filed YQT direct YXL, CX is "YQT 5 Dep blah, blah blah" Take off as per sid, then get "FLTxxx cleared present position direct YXL", I go direct-enter on the GPS. Different situation, same departure and I get "FLTxxx cleared on course", I turn to intercept the YQT-YXL route. Simple enough I think.

[Liquid Charlie]

I think most replies are stuck on rules -- my question had nothing to do with rules -- I want to know what is expected from a controller when you come off an airport and are cleared on course where the flight plan filed was direct between 2 points in space -- no airways -- no vor's -- no ndb's -- it's like keep your speed up below 10 -- means they would like to see your best speed and pls go faster than 250 kts --

[Flying Low]

I'm not a controller. Did a lot of flying out of YQT and have been given both once airborne. Cleared on course... and cleared direct. I still think the controller expects you to intercept the course filed and cleared when you are cleared on course. It may be hard for the controller to tell which one you are following as they can be quite close. Departing off 25 (no noise restrictions if I remember correctly) you start your turn at 400 feet. It is easy for you to be within a mile or so of your on course just by turning direct and this off-track distance will slowly get smaller as you fly closer to your destination.

[capt_yaw]

Relevant Manops from atc:

547.3
When an aircraft has been vectored off its cleared route, clear the aircraft to the next
waypoint or fix on its route of flight, unless the pilot requests otherwise.

547.1
You may terminate vectoring of an aircraft provided it is:
A. cleared for an approach.
B. cleared to hold; or
C. established on a non-radar route. (N)

547.1 C. Note:
An aircraft that is on a track that will intercept the “on course” within a reasonable distance is
considered to be established on a non-radar route.

[Liquid Charlie]

547.1 C. Note:
547.1 C. Note:
An aircraft that is on a track that will intercept the “on course” within a reasonable distance is
considered to be established on a non-radar route.

Seems that a turn direct(provided you didn't end up away from the immediate vicinity of the airport due to restrictions -- then one would just request direct) would satisfy the above because you would not violate your protected airspace.

[Pratt]

Yes, but the question still hasn't been answered from an ATC type here, there is a difference between " cleared on course, or intercept the course. And cleared direct, if you are cleared direct, is that direct from the airport or direct from the point that you start the turn or direct from where you are when you are told by terminal or centre you are cleared direct? Quite often a clearance for us is "Cleared CYYB direct Simcoe blah blah blah" , so we blast off 08 or 26, what do you want or expect us to do? Intercept the track direct from CYYB to Simcoe, or can we hit DCT to Simcoe once we decide to make a turn. Note: we were not cleared present position direct to Simcoe once airborne.

I know that they are minute differences in some cases but I still want to know exactly what my clearance is. There is often ambiguity that I will get clarified before I will accept the clearance.

An example: Last week, early AM dept out of YQG, dealing with YXU FSS relaying a clearance from KDTW we were given the YQG dept and then a turn to a heading, I questioned the clnce, asked for clarification. YXU FSS said that was what he assumed, I said that wasn't good enough, ask ATC exactly what they wanted. Went back and asked and it was then spelled out, before that it wasn't. ./......................When you are dealing with US terminal areas and centers be very specific, and very careful, we are just across the border and think we speak the same language as them, but there are alot of differences in the procedures.

Cheers

[pokaroo]

Here's how I look at it.

I couldn't care less as part of an initial clearance whether you proceed direct the next fix or pick up the track between the two. I'm going to protect for either one. If I require you to do something for separation purposes I will tie you down. ie. Depart runway 03 turn right heading 160 till able direct YYB as opposed to depart 03 turn right on course.

If I have you on a vector for the climb out though and then say cleared direct YSO i'm expecting you to go directly there from your position not to pick up the track between the two.


Pratt i'm sure i've issued that clearance to you a few times. Depart the runway and go direct YSO, if we wanted you to pick up the track we'd issue V37 YSO as opposed to direct. If there's traffic around you normally get the SID at YYB or failing that we always keep 1000 feet until you're airborne and on radar. If we want something else we'll tell you.

[Liquid Charlie]

Cool -- that's what I was looking for --

[capt_yaw]

I though my answer was pretty good.. and I'm a controller too

[Liquid Charlie]

so did I --

[Pratt]

Here's how I look at it.

I couldn't care less as part of an initial clearance whether you proceed direct the next fix or pick up the track between the two. I'm going to protect for either one. If I require you to do something for separation purposes I will tie you down. ie. Depart runway 03 turn right heading 160 till able direct YYB as opposed to depart 03 turn right on course.

If I have you on a vector for the climb out though and then say cleared direct YSO i'm expecting you to go directly there from your position not to pick up the track between the two.


Pratt i'm sure i've issued that clearance to you a few times. Depart the runway and go direct YSO, if we wanted you to pick up the track we'd issue V37 YSO as opposed to direct. If there's traffic around you normally get the SID at YYB or failing that we always keep 1000 feet until you're airborne and on radar. If we want something else we'll tell you.

Thanks for the reply, that clears things up pretty well.

Cheers

[FamilyGuy]

What - no radar vs. non radar debate???

Ah come on - I live for those.....

[Jerricho]

Procedural is white man's magic.............

[invertedattitude]

What - no radar vs. non radar debate???

Ah come on - I live for those.....

Radar is a crutch??

[Rudy]

Are you ATC Flying Low? I've flown out of YQT for years and when "cleared on course" I go present position direct. Have I been doing something wrong all this time and no one has called me on it?

Well I asked today and terminal said the enroute guys want me to reintercept the YQT direct XXX course if "Cleared on course". Sorry, I guess I've been doing it wrong all this time. I've saved a few thousand pounds of fuel though. Safer for SAR to reintercept I guess.

[PCAS]

If that's the case then, what intercept ANGLE do you make? 90, 45, 30?

[capt_yaw]

You fly whatever vector you have been given until intercepting the 'on course'