Given the following:
Two young pilots find somebody who wants to rent them a light twin for cheap. Both pilots have a CPL & MIFR.

Question: If the two pilots were flying under IFR rules in VMC conditions, is it possible that the guy on the right seat logs PIC if the guy in the left seat is under the hood & logs dual?

I keep getting mixed answers. Some say that it's safety pilot time & some say that it can be done. Forgot where it was in the CARS....

Thank you in advance!

Technically to instruct MIFR you need to just have a current raiting yourself. But as the 'instructor' you can't log instrument time unless your IMC.

Krashman wrote:Technically to instruct MIFR you need to just have a current raiting yourself. But as the 'instructor' you can't log instrument time unless your IMC.

Do you think it's legal if the guy on the left seats logs dual & simulated instruments & the guy on the right logs PIC? Given both have CPL & M/IFR?

Multi does not require instructor rating! so long as you have 50 hours on the airplane!
425.21 Qualifications of Flight Instructors

(5) A person who conducts flight training in a multi-engine aeroplane where the trainee does not have a multi-engine class rating shall:

(a) be the holder of a Commercial Pilot Licence or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence;

(b) have multi-engine pilot experience, which if acquired on centre thrust multi-engine aeroplanes may be credited toward qualifying a pilot to provide centre thrust multi-engine flight instruction only; and

(c) have experience of not less than 50 hours flight time on multi-engine aeroplanes with not less than 10 hours on the type of aeroplane used for the training.

THEICEMAN wrote:
Multi does not require instructor rating! so long as you have 50 hours on the airplane!
425.21 Qualifications of Flight Instructors

(5) A person who conducts flight training in a multi-engine aeroplane where the trainee does not have a multi-engine class rating shall:

(a) be the holder of a Commercial Pilot Licence or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence;

(b) have multi-engine pilot experience, which if acquired on centre thrust multi-engine aeroplanes may be credited toward qualifying a pilot to provide centre thrust multi-engine flight instruction only; and

(c) have experience of not less than 50 hours flight time on multi-engine aeroplanes with not less than 10 hours on the type of aeroplane used for the training.

Careful THEICEMAN, it is 50 hours in Multi and 10 hours on TYPE, so for example say you did your Multi and IFR in 40 hours on a Dutchess and you where renting a Seneca, you would need to complete 10 hours on the Seneca before you could start instructing on it. Now with that said to instruct IFR you only need a valid and current rating. So you could instruct IFR in your first hour on type with less than 50 multi. Clear as mud?

to instruct IFR you only need a valid and current rating. So you could instruct IFR in your first hour on type

So technically it's legal. The guy in the left seat can log dual under the hood, while the guy on the right seat can log PIC?

Don't worry 200hr wonder, I understood the 10hrs on type. In this case it won't be a problem since we are using the Aztec, which is the only multi time we have.

SO you need 50hrs multi experience & 10 hours on type to teach mutli, but just a CPL & M/IFR to instruct IFR?
I have a CPL, M/IFR & have logged 25 multi in an Aztec. Can I legally instruct IFR in an Aztec?

Actually THEICEMAN, I was unsure so I looked it up in CARs, and this is what they have to say:

DIVISION III - PERSONNEL AND AIRCRAFT

425.21 Qualifications of Flight Instructors

(9) A person who conducts flight training toward the issuance of an instrument rating shall be the holder of a Commercial Pilot Licence or an Airline Transport Pilot Licence, have an instrument rating and:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(a) have a flight instructor rating; or
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(b) have experience of not less than 500 hours pilot‑in‑command flight time, of which:
(amended 2006/12/14; previous version)

(i) not less than 100 hours shall be on the applicable aircraft group, and
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

(ii) in the case of Group I aircraft, not less than 10 hours shall be on the type of multi-engine aeroplane used for the training.
(amended 1998/03/23; previous version)

Soooo if you have an instructor rating you are good to go regardless of what airplane.

If you do not you need:
100hours Multi, 10hours on type, and 500TT to do the dual thing.

So in our example here the guy in the left can log dual and the guy in the right PIC provided the above, OR he holds a flight instructor rating.

Ooops I was unsure and looked it up, gasp I turned out be wrong.

So you can teach a regular multi rating to someone as long as you have a CPL and over 500PIC and 10 on type? And you don't need an instructor rating? Then as far as recommending your student for the flight test... is it the same drill as if it was done at a FTU?
Has anyone here done it this way yet and did you guys have any problems with the level of instruction as compared with getting it done at a FTU?

Thanks

Has anyone here done it this way yet and did you guys have any problems with the level of instruction as compared with getting it done at a FTU?

I have done that for decades and like to think my level of instruction is far superior to the base line quality you will get at an FTU.

Mind you I can no longer do that as TC will not approve my training.

Thanks for the response. I didn't think that there would be a problem. I just thought I'd ask because I have an opportunity to get a multi done on a Navajo from a guy with a few hundred hours on type. I think that it would be way better than doing it at a FTU for $300/hr. Plus on the Ho I'd literally only be paying for how much fuel we burned during the flight. Why won't TC won't approve your training?

Why won't TC won't approve your training?

Because I took them to task for breaking the law and won...therefore I am on their black list and can no longer fly in Canada....

When I read these type of threads, it makes my blood boil.

Iceman: ask yourself this......is this really dual training?

Or is this just another attempt for both pilots to log the time?

If it is the second, take some time and read the accident reports in the aviaition safety letters....they are full of pilots who think experience is nothing more that a log book entry.

If you have two pilots in a twin, flying VFR, and both are qualified, where is the training being done?

I dont know where you are in the system , but let me assure you that some companies actually check through logbooks as a condition of employment , and consider enteries like this as absolute bars to employment. They show a. pilot is basically not honest...if they will do that will they also "add" a .1 to the airtime of every flight on your planes., b. that they really dont understand the concept or value of experience., and c. they think that they can pretty much fly anything safely if they can simply get into the seat...or maybe they just dont care if its safe, figuring they can learn on the job

Be honest...It will pay of in the long run

When I read these type of threads, it makes my blood boil.

Iceman: ask yourself this......is this really dual training?

Or is this just another attempt for both pilots to log the time?

How is it not honest?

How do you make the correlation between somebody trying to build multi & another person who cooks the books by adding a 0.1? I don't get it?

If two pilots have 500TT, 50 Multi, CPL & M/IFR...it's legal under the CARS.

You talk about safety. If I were a CFI, I would feel much more comfortable allowing two pilots to fly IFR then one pilot. Single IFR in busy airspace can be extremely dangerous for younger pilots.....having two is much safer!
& yes, I read the safety newsletter from cover to cover.

You talk about the value of time. How is it any different then the FTUs that sit in the right seat & long PIC with private pilots during long trips?
If a M/IFR pilot wanted to brush up his IFR skills & asks another qualified IFR pilot to instruct, is that wrong? Is an FTU really going to make a difference?

Yes it is an attempt to build multi time, but it is also an attempt to do dual training. I may have a M/IFR, but my skills are not 100%. Practise makes perfect!

In the U.S, FAR 91.109 allows two pilots to LOG PIC simultanoeusly in VFR conditions. It may be safety pilot time, but it is accepted by the regionals.

Does anybody else feel that it's dishonest?

Absolutely not. It's legal and it is honest.

Guess I am wrong then.

What you are talking about is in the AIM under LRA 3.7.4


But keep in mind this time, although "legal" is not really the best thing to do to gain experience.

What it does is put ink in your logbook.