End of the 208B

[safetywatch]

Well you shouldn't fly them over mountains, and with any luck you won't be able to fly them in icing at all, so so long as it is a bright clear sunny day over the prairies you may be OK - see below:

Brett & Coats representing victims of Cessna crash
Brett & Coats is pursuing a lawsuit on behalf of two of the families who lost loved ones in the October 7, 2007 crash of a single-engine Cessna Caravan near White Pass, Washington.

The suit alleges that Cessna was aware of major defects with the Caravan including poor performance in icy conditions and a miscalibrated stall-warning system – errors that many believe contributed to this fatal crash.

Brett & Coats is teamed with The Nolan Law Group, a Chicago aviation firm which is also handling several other national and international Cessna 208 B Caravan lawsuits. The Cessna 208 B is primarily used as a freight carrier from small cities, and while it typically operates well in good weather, it should never have been certified to fly into icing conditions.

What we have discovered in that litigation is that Cessna faked the data to get the plane certified to fly in icing conditions. The FAA requires a plane to demonstrate that it can fly 14.7 miles in icing conditions. Cessna conducted 5 shorter test flights, added the total miles together, and told the FAA that the plane had met the 14.7 mile standard. And on the day of the ice testing, the spectrometer was broken, but instead of fixing it, Cessna had the pilot estimate the size of the ice particles by looking out the window at 150 miles per hour and estimating the size of ice particles down to the size of a human hair.

The firms are involved in pretrial procedures in Kansas City, Kansas, where a Federal Multi-District Litigation has been established to handle the discovery process near Cessna’s headquarters.

Any family who lost a family member in the October crash may contact the firm of Brett & Coats at (800) 925-1875. The firm is prepared to provide representation to survivors of all passengers in this case.

We are hopeful that this lawsuit will help to prevent more crashes in the future.

When this litigation is over the Cessna 208 B will no longer be certified to fly in icing conditions. Too many planes have gone down. Too many people have died.

[Ref Plus 10]

And on the day of the ice testing, the spectrometer was broken, but instead of fixing it, Cessna had the pilot estimate the size of the ice particles by looking out the window at 150 miles per hour and estimating the size of ice particles down to the size of a human hair.

Seems a little wacky to me that a company like Cessna is able to fake tests like that and get away with it without the FAA noticing that something like a spectrometer reading was...omitted?

When this litigation is over the Cessna 208 B will no longer be certified to fly in icing conditions. Too many planes have gone down. Too many people have died.

I'm not defending the safety record of the Caravan, however, it's not the first plane to go down in icing, nor will it be the last. In my opinion, only when people start to realize the seriousness of ice and it's effects on aerodynamics will we see a decrease in accidents related to airframe icing.

[wallypilot]

Guess they should have banned the F28, as well...didn't it go down in icing(dryden, wasn't it?), killing way more people in one crash than the caravan has killed in its whole life.

ditto to the post above. People just need to realize its limitations. But, maybe that will never happen, so maybe the lowest common denominator will rule again, and we will end up with a bunch of lawyers trying to ban the aircraft from ever flying in any conditions.

[whiteguy]

Guess they should have banned the F28, as well...didn't it go down in icing(dryden, wasn't it?), killing way more people in one crash than the caravan has killed in its whole life.

ditto to the post above. People just need to realize its limitations. But, maybe that will never happen, so maybe the lowest common denominator will rule again, and we will end up with a bunch of lawyers trying to ban the aircraft from ever flying in any conditions.

That was a bit of a different sitaution.

[ch135146]

I'm not defending the safety record of the Caravan, however, it's not the first plane to go down in icing, nor will it be the last.

Agree.

And, who cares about what a bunch of F**Khead ambulance chasers say before a trial anyway?

[Hedley]

I must presume that the prime motivation for all the
sudden and intense interest of the lawyers is the
improvement of the fleet, correct?

[MichaelP]

Hedley you should know that the lawyers see the Dentists and Doctors owning better aeroplanes than they do.
Lawyers have to catch up somehow.

The opposite of Lawyer is Altruist.

[1000 HP]

From personal experience on the Caravan (208 only), it does not fly well or at all in icing and/or heavy wet snow. So I took those days off and nobody bitched at me. I was at a good operation though.

[Doc]

The Caravan is the best airplane in the air, for it's original intended purpose. That was, flying small packages from pavement to pavement for companies like FedEx.

[Widow]

What we have discovered in that litigation is that Cessna faked the data to get the plane certified to fly in icing conditions. The FAA requires a plane to demonstrate that it can fly 14.7 miles in icing conditions. Cessna conducted 5 shorter test flights, added the total miles together, and told the FAA that the plane had met the 14.7 mile standard. And on the day of the ice testing, the spectrometer was broken, but instead of fixing it, Cessna had the pilot estimate the size of the ice particles by looking out the window at 150 miles per hour and estimating the size of ice particles down to the size of a human hair.

This information has been publically posted to the law firms website, and linked to a few others. If this has no basis in fact, I would think they would stand to be in a lot of trouble. That's a pretty serious allegation ... if it's true, it's darned scarey.

[trey kule]

I am not particularily referring to this issue, but I was at Cessna a couple of years ago and the folks there were bragging how they could fast track the certifications...they used expamples of bringing new types on line in record time....and how the FAA was in awe of their process.

It is interesting then, when an allegation like this surfaces. Gives a whole new meaning of how to fast track the certification process.

Having said that, it seems almost incomprehensible that Cessna would endanger the lives of so many . If it is found to be true I suspect it would be the end for Cessna as the lawsuits will start pouring in.

[safetywatch]

Love them or hate them - our friends to the south don't take too may prisoners in these situations. If the allegation, and it is only that until proven in a court of law, turns out to be right, some people in Cessna could find themselves in jail for the rest of their lives. They should move to Canada quickly - then they would just get 20 hours of community service.

[CD1]

You must be kidding me! Cessna has been building planes before I was born, I highly doubt they would fake data to get the aircraft certified for icing. I fly a caravan and have never had a serious issue with ice, and trust me, I'm in it all the time. Its all about leaving yourself an out, the people that become complacent are the ones who die. So before you start making allegations about Cessna, bring me some hard facts! Don't waste our time with your un-educated knowledge of Cessna and the Caravan for that matter!

[safetywatch]

Just so that you know I am not making any allegations, I am simply reporting the facts - they are reported by a highly reputable law firm and can be seen at: http://www.washingtoninjury.com/WA-aviation-lawsuit.asp

I don't think a law firm would tell lies, even on the web, - they know the penalties that would result from a civil lawsuit against them.

I do agree with you - if true it would be unbelievable, but then so was Enron when it first surfaced.

[Doc]

1000 HP, you stated the 208 "from personal experience, didn't fly very well, or at all in icing..."
I'd really like to hear about the times it didn't "fly at all...."?
I flew the Caravan before this "ice" thing came along. The Caravan is no worse than something like an Aztec, or a 310. I wouldn't stay in ice in a 310, or an Aztec for any length of time. Same with the 'van. Common sense has to enter into it somewhere here children. I don't recall a Caravan being "iced" out of the sky. The ones I can think of all had (I believe) been contaminated while still on the ground. I, for one feels the Caravan has been the victim of a "witch hunt". Excuses are being sought by pilots flying an airplane when they should have been at the pub drinking beer.

[Cat Driver]

don't recall a Caravan being "iced" out of the sky.

The one in Washington seems to have been.

[MrWings]

If the 208 can carry as much ice as an Aztec then it is doing pretty well. I've seen an Aztec carry a shyteload of ice.

[Widow]

The ones I can think of all had (I believe) been contaminated while still on the ground.

Not this one:

http://www.tsb.gc.ca/en/reports/air/200 ... 5c0187.asp (Morningstar)

3.1 Findings as to Causes and Contributing Factors

The aircraft departed at a weight exceeding the maximum take-off weight and the maximum weight for operation in icing conditions.

After departure from Winnipeg, the aircraft encountered in-flight icing conditions in which the aircraft's performance deteriorated until the aircraft was unable to maintain altitude.

During the attempt to return to the Winnipeg International Airport, the pilot lost control of the aircraft, likely with little or no warning, at an altitude from which recovery was not possible.

[Doc]

Was the pilot not capable of doing a 180 degree turn? I've done U-Turns. Bet you have as well. Heavy freezing rain etc will bring down more than just Caravans.

"After departing....." Okay, that's to official line? BS. Nobody else encountered in flight ice, yet this ONE aircraft was brought down by in flight ice......and the tooth fairy is real!
That is an assumption brought to us by political correctness. Just another example of TSB grabbing at straws. I read the transcripts. I've flown 'vans in icing conditions. TSB "has" to come up with something.....where's the proof? Doubt there was any ice on the leading edges at the scene?? That is an absolute crock of crap!

[bandit1]

Do you guys think that lack of pilot experience has anything to do with the Caravans going down in ice? I'd be curious to see the logbooks of those that crashed Caravans in icing situations.

Shouldn't you know better than to push in a plane that ALREADY has a bad reputation for flying in ice?

Like they say, a good pilot is one who knows when NOT to go, not one that brags about being able to take off into any kind of weather.

On that point, who cares if you don't go or overshoot an approach? It's ONLY a friggin job and you're not going to get paid more to get in. We've all done it at one point or another and nobody is going to pat you on the back for doing a good job. And if they do, they're idiots.

That last paragraph is for all the new low time 703 captains with 200hr F/O's. BE CAREFUL GUYS!

[Doc]

Mr Wings...that's about the size of it.

That said....if you are flying a Caravan, and you encounter any more than a momentary ice condition, do a 180 RFN. Any questions?

[2R]

When all else fails, read the instructions

[SuperDave]

Oh boy...here we go again...

Maybe I'm slightly biased towards the Van since I have some time on it, or maybe I'm nuts. My point of view remains unchanged.

The Caravan is a great airplane for what it was designed for. Pavement to pavement, or even 2000'+ gravel to gravel it will do a lot considering what it costs to run one on a dollar/mile basis and what it will carry. It even does good on floats all things considered if you don't need to get off the water in a hurry a la Otter.
The anti/de-ice equip on the Van, like in most other airplanes is simply there to buy you enough time to (hopefully) exit the icing condition soon, not to remain in it sipping coffee and counting down your remaining minutes to live.

Sure, some airplanes with more power and a higher margin between cruise and minimium icing speed will buy you more time....but in the end not many airplanes can sustain prolonged flight in icing. Sure...trace and very light icing maybe, but that's not the point here. When you get into ice try to get out. As a general rule, it often only takes a change in altitude of 2000-3000'.

The Van does need extra caution due to it's slow airspeed in cruise compared to the minimum icing speed, and the lack of excess power. Every airplane has limitations and it's up to the pilot to know what they are and abide by them. Common sense is always encouraged too. It doesn't take rocket appliances to figure out that a single engine Van will not have the same performance and limits as a KA-350 or Cheyenne 400 XLS.
Like in any airplane, leave your ego at the door fools. You can't go saving the world in a C208, or any other plane for that matter. Stay home, crack some beers and play flight stimulator if you really feel like you let humanity down. Remember the days you left your Super Cub tied to the dock while the Beavers, Otters and B-18's were givin' 'eron the windy days? The Caravan and ice....same idea.

As far as this lawsuit is concerned...wow. I do empathize with the ones that have lost lives. The engine failure over the rocks...that's tragic...but we can't change the past. We chould however learn form it. Over more forgiving terrain, perhaps it would have turned out better?

If in fact the tests were staged, well...that's sad. Cost/benefit factor I guess? But if they're legit, why pull the icing certificate? Having flown the C208 in ice many times I assure you it can do it. It's all a matter of how you play the game. And the name of the game you ask? It's called "Get the f.ck out"! How come the ATR didn't loose it's papers to fly in icing? I'm curious.

Stay safe out there!

Dave

[Cat Driver]

As I recall this airplane was tracked on radar and appears to have spun in and the wreckage supported such a scenario. Remember the Winnipeg accident, both seem to have went in from a loss of control spin combined with icing.

[2R]

You cannot play a tune on the stall horn like you can on the smaller cessnas