Hello,

I'm looking for a second opinion from the "Avcanada brain pool"...

Here's my situation: I'm currently an instructor, still class 4, with little chance of getting a class 3 before we're well into the summer. (Just to be clear I've been instructing since last spring.) I like instructing, and feel like I do some part-time as I move onto other jobs.

I keep an eye on the job ads and some rather interesting ones could now be within my reach. better pay, slightly bigger equipment (much of it with two engines), some IFR, some not.

So the question is: Do I wait until I have my class 3 before seriously looking for something else, at the risk of missing out on the current hiring season? Or do I start looking right away, at the risk of being "stuck" with a class 4 instructor rating? (I believe that getting the missing first solos and flight tests is going to be very difficult in a "freelance"/part-time situation.)

Thanks in advance,

BKN015

I would like to mention first off that I'm not even in the industry... just trying to FIND a job but here's where I sit right now:

If I am to spend the ~7k to get my instructor rating, I get the 700ish or so PIC time per year and money is not an issue I would stick it out until at least 1500 hours and an ATPL. I'm seeing a LOT of guys who are leaving instructing at 3-500 hours for the right seat but guess what... they will be sitting there for a long time. He's my idea of a time line... I'm interested in other peoples input on this:

Assume 250 starting time
2 years instructing -> atpl -> 1 year right seat on something with 2 eng -> left seat on something small with 2 eng or right seat something bigger (at this point I think the market opens up a little more with options)
2-3 years grinding right seat -> ATPL -> 6+ mos left seat on a sigle -> 1 year left seat on a small twin/continue single

I could be wrong but that seams to be a general progression... but then again.. what do I know.

I also thing that guys with 1500 hour PIC and an ATPL will have better job security if the music stops playing... *shrug*

2-3 years? HAH good luck with that... Most companies will fly you between 400-500hrs a year... at that rate it's gonna take 5 solid years to get to the 2500hr mark and ATPL reqs. if you sit right seat. A 1500hr instructor is still gonna need probably 2 years sittin in the meat seat as well. Either way it's more about the journey.. Where are you gonna have more fun? What works best for you? Tons of people crying for instructors right now.. not so many for low time cojoes Heck.. the float world is even screamin for guys with over 100 hrs on floats!!

Good times Good times!!

Rowdy wrote:2-3 years? HAH good luck with that... Most companies will fly you between 400-500hrs a year... at that rate it's gonna take 5 solid years to get to the 2500hr mark and ATPL reqs. if you sit right seat. A 1500hr instructor is still gonna need probably 2 years sittin in the meat seat as well. Either way it's more about the journey.. Where are you gonna have more fun? What works best for you? Tons of people crying for instructors right now.. not so many for low time cojoes Heck.. the float world is even screamin for guys with over 100 hrs on floats!!

Good times Good times!!

That's a good reply right there. Also, it is a much more friendly environment to find a job when you HAVE A JOB. So go, do your instructing job, and do it well. Wait to hear about of a gig that lights your fire a little more than right seat on that navajo that only ever seems to have the one prop turning on it.

Not sure if I would strive for 1500 hours of instructing; you have some colleagues out there right now that are misrepresenting 1500 hour instructors as a bad thing. Keep your flying skills strong, stay humble, but stay positive and things should unfold nicely for you.

Rowdy wrote:2-3 years? HAH good luck with that... Most companies will fly you between 400-500hrs a year... at that rate it's gonna take 5 solid years to get to the 2500hr mark and ATPL reqs.

Good point.. I was going for best case scenario

I also like to add that with an ATPL you have a better chance of finding a job abroad if you're into that sort of thing

As far as 1500 hours and/or instructor time... an ATPL is an ATPL. With the companies/pilots I talked to here in Calgary (Borek/Sunwest.. ) they will take an ATPL over a guy with 500 hours of "REAL" experience unless you have a type rating etc... even at that... guys here are looking for pilots they can move to left seat. Once you hold an ATPL flying time counts 1:1 no matter which seat you sit in as far as insurance companies are concerned... am I wrong?

you have some colleagues out there right
now that are misrepresenting 1500 hour instructors
as a bad thing

Over the decades, I have given around 2,000 hours of
dual.

I would dearly love some *sswipe to walk up to me at
CYSH and personally tell me that my shelf of logbooks
is "tainted" by my instructor time, and that I'm not a
"real pilot", and that my stick & rudder skills are weaker
than his, because I gave instruction during my career.

Strap on a chute, *sswipe. Get in the front seat,
and let's do 10 tumbles in a row, and watch you
barf the last 2 days worth of meals up. Then you
can critique my surface-level outside loops in
line abreast formation

F_ck off, junior. I was flying before you were born.

So Hedley does that mean that if I say your time is tainted, and call you an *sswipe, you'll take me for a ride

Deal.

Hey Hedley....I was flying before you were born...

So to really learn how it goes come fly with me.

P.S...

I ain't about to claim I can teach you anything in a Pitts but hey you gotta be better than me at something..

Interesting situation, BKN015 - I'm in a very similar situation right now, except I'm already a class3

Anyone here know of any great navajo (or similar ) operators they'd recommend?

beast

BKN015 wrote:Hello,

I'm looking for a second opinion from the "Avcanada brain pool"...

at the risk of being "stuck" with a class 4 instructor rating? (I believe that getting the missing first solos and flight tests is going to be very difficult in a "freelance"/part-time situation.)

Thanks in advance,

BKN015

Keep in mind that you can't freelance with a class 4. Part time with an FTU, sure...but not freelance.

Personally, if you want to be in the IFR world in the long term, get in now, and don't worry about the intructor rating. If it is valuable to you too keep the rating, and you could find an operational job and you could keep a part time instructing gig, then go for it. I have seen many people do that. But at the end of the day, think about what you want long term, what experience will be better. If you really want to be flying in an operational environment, then just get in asap with a company that you are comfortable working for.

Consider trying to get in with one of the cadet schools, class III in six weeks, then go from there.

An ATPL with 1500hrs is not going to get you a turbine left seat. Not even a chance!! Maybe a marginal navajo spot....I know the reqs. for the companies in calgary (I have good close buddies at all) You're gonna need +2500hrs.. and you'll need some multi PIC to meet contrails.. unless of course you come to borek and go north!! But even then.. 2500hrs MIN. with an ATPL. Who cares how you got it. Albeit guys with PIC/Float/gravel and offstrip time will be preffered. In the end.. they're going to take Whoever meets the requirements!

Again.. go have some fun in the formative years!! Fly your bag off instructing or in the bush.. have some interesting stories to tell.. some adventures.. see different parts of the country.

Rowdy wrote:An ATPL with 1500hrs is not going to get you a turbine left seat. Not even a chance!! Maybe a marginal navajo spot....I know the reqs. for the companies in calgary (I have good close buddies at all) You're gonna need +2500hrs.. and you'll need some multi PIC to meet contrails.. unless of course you come to borek and go north!! But even then.. 2500hrs MIN. with an ATPL. Who cares how you got it. Albeit guys with PIC/Float/gravel and offstrip time will be preffered. In the end.. they're going to take Whoever meets the requirements!

Not entirely correct. With a good amount of IFR MultiPIC (say on a navajo, or other similar aircraft) there are operators that have hired direct entry 1200-1500 hour multi turbine captains without an ATPL, and just a month or 2 in the right seat to learn the airplane. (A certain YVR metro operator springs to mind)

However, with just instructing time and the ATPL, and with respect to the YYC operators, Rowdy, you are entirely correct.

Sorry Wally.. thats what I was reffering too. There are always exceptions..

Right now we're looking for class 3 or better instructors to get into the Navajos while they instruct, and then eventually into the Conquest. Best of both worlds. I'd like to think we're one of the better operators out there... pm if interested.