Voluntary Safety Shutdown of OP's

[theboard]

Moncton Flight Collage voluntarily shut down operations today due to safety concerns.

The past few months have been horrible in regards to safety.

Today a DA20 Eclipse hit the approach lights in YFC. The pilot in command then rejected the landing, flew another patern and landed. The aircraft was badly damaged.

Yesterday there were 2 propeller strikes. One was a due to a bounce on the landing in an Eclipse and the other was a twin Seminole.

Yesterday one of the Chinese students taxied out & positioned himself on the runway. An airliner noticed the pilot had left his engine cover on. A few seconds later the engine died.

This place is a mess. There are classes of 20-30 chinese students arriving every 2 to 3 months the school cannot keep up! Flight instructors are reluctant to send students on first solos but have to. It is a surprise no one has been killed yet!

A few MFC CADORS for February:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... tion=11175
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... tion=11172
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... tion=11171
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... tion=11168
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... tion=11165
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... tion=11148
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... tion=11129
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... tion=11099
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... tion=11093
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... tion=11090
http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/applicatio ... tion=11087

[bandit1]

Would an instructor really send a student solo if he didn't feel he was ready?

I don't know about you, but I couldn't live with myself if I did it and the student killed himself.

Sounds like the school is trying to make as much money as possible without taking safety into consideration.

I hope this is a lesson to other schools and especially operators to be more careful.

[Widow]

Here's a question. I'm sure some of you will blast me for it but ...

Since it's a given that many instructors are low-time (new) pilots with little or no "real world" experience, how can they possibly judge if a student is "ready"?

[shitdisturber]

Here's a question. I'm sure some of you will blast me for it but ...

Since it's a given that many instructors are low-time (new) pilots with little or no "real world" experience, how can they possibly judge if a student is "ready"?

Realistic answer, they can't. Which is why Class IV instructors have to send their students for a pre solo check with a Class I or II. By the time they've gotten their upgrade, an instructor should have at least a reasonable idea of when a student is ready.

[theboard]

My son attends the school.

I know for a fact that Class I or II instructors do NOT preform a pre solo check unless the student is having big problems.
The school is turning into a pilot assembly line.

They are desperate for instructors and will hire ANYONE!

This makes me so mad considering how much money I have put into my sons education!

Here's a question. I'm sure some of you will blast me for it but ...

Since it's a given that many instructors are low-time (new) pilots with little or no "real world" experience, how can they possibly judge if a student is "ready"?

Realistic answer, they can't. Which is why Class IV instructors have to send their students for a pre solo check with a Class I or II. By the time they've gotten their upgrade, an instructor should have at least a reasonable idea of when a student is ready.

[theboard]

Honestly as a parent it is difficult for me to deal with these issues.

My son does not want me to approach the school as he fears this will effect his career.

He says the pilot community is tightly knit. He fears if I complain his chances of becoming a flight instructor might be jeopardized. Not only that but he feels future career opportunities might be jeopardized.

My son constantly complains of many other issues.

The aircraft fleet is constantly down for maintenance. This makes it difficult to make flight bookings. Then he is constantly given a hard time in regards to being behind in regards to flying hours!

Out of the 6 Cessna 172's 2 are flying.
Out of the dozen Dimonds about half are flying.
Out of the 4 twin Seminoles 1 is flying.

He mentioned that besides the Diamond aircraft the school is constantly purchasing old aircraft which end up constantly being down for maintenance if not complete lemons spending 70% or more time in maintenance!

He says this may be thanks to the maintenance department. They seem to be on bankers hours and work as slow a molasses. Don't even think of entering their department to ask a questions about an aircraft without a lashing. Maybe they forgot who is paying their salaries?

From my understand most maintenance is done during the evenings with most airlines and flight schools... I guess not at MFC. The longer the aircraft are down sitting in a hanger at night the better!?!

His instructors are constantly complaining VERY publicly of the many existing issues and bad job conditions. Most are desperate for other work.

The place is a mess!

When we first took a tour of the school we were very impressed, now we are very disappointed.

Thank you for listening to my rant.

[mfcstudent]

I agree with the shutdown of the school at the moment... there are pending safety issues at the school and this will give the instructors a chance to sit down and discuss any and all of these issues.

I just wanted to say to the previous poster that your comments about the maintenance are completely absurd. The reason that the planes are in maintenance is because any little mechanical problem is dealt with. The maintenance people at the school are reliable and (I'm pretty sure) are on a on-call basis during the night. I have snagged an airplane during the night before, got another one and by the time i returned from my flight there were maintenance personnel there looking at the plane. The maintenance people aren't lazy.

For your comment made about the fact that all the maintenance being done at other flight schools is done during the night, in case you didn't know most of the issues with the planes occur during the day. At night, more then half the fleet of diamonds/cessnas are in the hanger (airworthy of course). There is much less traffic during the night resulting on less maintenance needed at night.

There are always going to be things to complain about whether it's the instructors or the students doing it. The above is just my opinion and should not be taken as the opinion of other students. I understand your concerns and I'm just trying to give you another opinion

[BTD]

My son attends the school.

I know for a fact that Class I or II instructors do NOT preform a pre solo check unless the student is having big problems.

I find this extremely hard to believe. Not only does the the class 1 or 2 have to fly with the student at some point pre solo. They also have to fill in the PTR and sign that they concur with the plan to send the student solo. This is only a requirement for the Class 4s, and anyone else that the CFI deems necessary.

Here are the references.

421.62 Class 4 Supervision Requirement

The holder of a Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating shall be under the supervision of the holder of a Class 1 or 2 Flight Instructor Rating, in the applicable category, and shall submit for review to the supervising instructor the following:

(1) the training program for each student undergoing training by the holder of a Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating;

(2) flight progress checks for each student at intervals to be specified by the supervising flight instructor, but at least once before the first solo flight and once before the flight test for issue of the pilot licence;

(3) a record of results on the form "Instructor’s Training Record While Under Direct Supervision"; and

(4) the student’s pilot training record for each first solo flight and for each flight test recommendation for approval.

421.63 Class 1 or 2 - Supervision of the Holder of a Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating - Aeroplane and Helicopter

When providing direct supervision to the holder of a Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating, the holder of a Class 1 or 2 Flight Instructor Rating - aeroplane or helicopter shall:

(1) review and approve the holder of the Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating’s proposed training program for each student to ensure conformity with the Flight Training Manual and Flight Instructor Guide;

(2) specify the intervals at which progress checks are required, which shall be at least once before the first solo flight and once before the flight test for issue of the pilot licence;

(3) conduct the progress checks specified in (2) above;

(4) approve and countersign the student’s pilot training record for each first solo flight authorized and for each flight test recommended by the holder of a Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating; and

(5) review and certify the holder of a Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating’s "Instructor’s Training Record while under Direct Supervision" form, as to the student’s competency with respect to first solo flights and flight tests for issue of licences.

421.64 Class 4 - Record Keeping

The holder of a Class 4 Flight Instructor Rating - aeroplane or helicopter shall maintain a record of results for all students trained on the form "Instructor’s Training Record while under Direct Supervision".

Transport Canada usually covers the well known college programs with pretty good scrutiny. Having been a student at a college and returning to instruct before moving into "the real world" I find it unlikely that we are getting the entire story when it comes to the supervision.

BTD

[BTD]

If all of this is true, its nice to see that they are trying to prevent "tombstone" policy changes.

BTD

[mfcstudent]

I know for a fact that Class I or II instructors do NOT preform a pre solo check unless the student is having big problems.

I had a check ride before my first solo.. are you implying that I have big problems?
I think you need to check your facts before you say things like that

[Meecka]

theboard,

Just a small note of clarification. I am a Licenced AME working for a company that does maintenance for a flight school, the aircraft come in for inspections and de-snagging during the DAY. Not all companies do their maintenance at night, the major air cariers do of course ( and I'm talking comapnies the size of WJ and Big Red here) But from what I know most flight schools have their maintenance done during the day. I don't think that implying that the mechanics are lazy sods that don't really know what they are doing is entirely appropriate. Yes I know what your son told you, but, you are after all his parent. Perhaps slightly biased. It may have not occured to you that the stress level involved with trying to keep a fleet of aircraft in AIRWORTHY condition, while flight instructors are constantly nipping at your heels to get them done because they have an unrealistic amount of students stacked- up, is quite high.

That is all.

[sky's the limit]

Oh come on Meecka,

We all know AME's are lazy as hell.... Pull a wrench, drink a coffee, pull a wrench, have lunch....

Of course, we can't go flying without them..... Funny how that works.

stl

[Northern Skies]

He says the pilot community is tightly knit. He fears if I complain his chances of becoming a flight instructor might be jeopardized. Not only that but he feels future career opportunities might be jeopardized.

Is this perceived by him because he's eager, or is there evidence to support it? He may want to think about that. On the other hand, sometimes it's real...

We had that culture at the college I went to. I followed it until the conditions spiralled down, our treatment worsened, and I finally had a serious disagreement. The CFI told me straight out that "this is a small industry, we are all connected, and you shouldn't burn your bridges by arguing with me". I didn't back down and kept pursuing it, and the issue disappeared after it was resolved. I was afraid to do it and was uncertain of my future, but I'm glad I did!

Please remind your son that he is a customer there and should be treated as such. If they are fostering a culture of intimidation among their new pilots, they are contributing to the numbers of pilots in this country who are intimidated into unsafe acts by unscrupulous employers. Generally a potential *good* employer will go for someone who seems to have been influenced by experience. Having a backbone is one of the symptoms of that experience. He should ask himself that if his school is screwing him over as a customer, does he really want to work there? I don't know much about MFC at all, but your remarks reminded me of one of the best lessons I learned: Sit back and look at the broad picture with an open mind, and form your own opinion about the situation. Consider your options based on your own research and when you follow through, make sure you get what you paid for. Sure, you should not burn bridges in this business. But if you try to please everyone who crosses your path, you will be taken advantage of.

I applaud the decision of pulling the plug until the situation is worked out. Most places would not have done that, and possibly let someone get hurt.

[lilfssister]

Date:11 February 2008
Position:AME
Company Name:MFC Fredericton
Contact Person:Carter Grasse
Street Address:2552 Rte 102 Hwy
Lincoln NB E3B 9G1
City:Fredericton
State/Province:New Brunswick
Country:Canada
Email address: carter.grasse@mfcfredericton.com
Phone number:506-357-3787
Fax number:506-357-5715
Send Resume By:Fax,Mail,Email
Aircraft Types:Diamond DA20's, Beech King Air, Piper Seminole twin

Job Description:
MFC Fredericton is seeking experienced, licensed Aircraft Maintenance
Engineers for its fixed wing flight training operations at the
Fredericton International Airport, in beautiful Fredericton, NB.

MFC Fredericton is a franchise/ sub base of the Moncton Flight College
serving International contracts only. The year long program involves
over 200 hours of flight time per student. We currently have 90 students
and will have 150 by April 2008. Continued long term growth plans are
to increase enrolment by another thirty – fifty percent.

Our present fleet of 8 Diamonds DA20-C1’s each currently operate over
7 hours per day. Additional aircraft to be added to our fleet in the
next three months include two Piper Seminole twins, a Beech King Air and
more DA20’s.


REQUIREMENTS:
• Cooperative team players.
• Some flexibility with changing requirements regarding work
hours/days i.e. on call duties as necessary. • Supportive of continual safety and quality improvement.


QUALIFICATIONS AND EXPERIENCE:
. Canadian citizenship, landed immigrant or valid Canadian work permit.

. Current Transport Canada M1 and/or M2 AME licenses with ability to
obtain M1 within three months.
• Experience on Beech King Air turbo props; Piper piston twins and
Diamond DA20’s would be considered an asset.

RESPONSIBILITIES:
• Carry out inspection and repairs of engines, components and
airframes.
• Ensure operating and maintenance procedures comply with industry
and internal regulations, and quality standards.
• May be involved in project coordination.
• Certification of work performed in accordance with applicable
manuals, policies and procedures.
• Entering appropriate log book entries as required.
• Assist in the instruction of non-licensed AME’s.

As we are a 24/7 operation, on call duties will be required. MFC
Fredericton offers a competitive compensation and benefits program including
a company sponsored RSP. We thank all candidates for their interest
however only those candidates selected for an interview will be contacted.
No phone calls please! Please include a list of aircraft types on
which you are experienced in your resume. MFC Fredericton is committed to
equal opportunity employment and invites applications from all qualified
candidates.

Resumes with a covering letter may be delivered, faxed or emailed to:
MFC Fredericton
2552 Rte 102 Hwy
Lincoln NB E3B 9G1
Email: carter.grasse@mfcfredericton.com
Fax: 506-357-5715


Salary:competitive wage package
Closing Date:9 March 2008

This job ad would suggest MFC AME's work at night as well as during the day?

[MFCCPL]

theboard:

CHECK YOUR FACTS
I am not trying to tell you that you're completely oblivious to anything going on at the Moncton Flight College (it's College, not Collage), but you are!!! First of all, the problem is not related to the AMEs whatsoever (which is Aircraft Maintenance Engineer, I'm not sure if your son told you this...) Secondly, I do agree that the college has too many Chinese students, but there is also a lack of instructors. Meaning, you might be angry since your son is unable to fly as often as you would like, since each instructor has multiple students. Do know though, that your son is attending one of the best flight schools in the country and that your money is not going to waste as it may seem to you. Thirdly, the reason the planes at MFC are often in the maintenance hangar has sometimes nothing to do with anyone at the school, had you thought of that??? Have you ever thought that it might have been the manufacturer's error? You can't go on complaining about stuff you have no clue about. Have you ever taken into consideration that your son might be not trying his hardest and that he might be behind because of that. I would also like to add that your son is completely wrong, odds are he did not have a Class IV instructor, therefore did not require a supervisory ride before his first solo. DUH! So, stop saying the AMEs are lazy, stop saying the place is a mess and visit the school and try putting yourself in the students, instructors, AMEs and administration's shoes, then go on complaining, until then, stop complaining!!!!

bandit1:

I agree with the fact that you doubt instructors would ever send their student solo if they thought something wrong would happen, but trying to involving money into this is absurd. The college's fleet has double in the last few years, the school isn't pocketing the money for the staff but for the students' training.

[old metal]

So is this proof the S.M.S. System is working? LOL this whole industry is a joke, i think i'll go drive a truck.

[Tim]

You have no idea what your talking about.

The school has not CONSTANTLY bought old planes in bad condition, in fact the vast majority have been brand new.

How fast should AMEs work? Would you rather they speed through an inspection and have your son be the first person to fly it afterwards? Your son and any other student deserve whatever lashing maintenance gives them. It is not their place to be asking an AME the status of planes, nor is it the responsibility of the AMEs to report to the students. They report to their manager and they keep the dispatchers aware of the ESTIMATED times planes will be fixed. Their work keeps the school running.

I've been involved with 5 different flight schools and not one of them has worked an overnight shift for maintenance. Although I would agree we need a few more on staff and working weekends, the blame you place on them is uneducated, second-hand, regurgitated nonsense. I would hazard your son doesn't have a PPL yet, and his aviation knowledge is minimal. I also am 100% certain that if your son is being bothered for being behind schedule it is because he isn't putting enough effort in. The program manager knows every single student by name, what kind of marks they get, how they perform in the plane and how far along in the flying they are versus where they should be. He does not miss much and he is not unfair or unreasonable. If he thinks that your son can be doing more to progress in his flying then that is the case.

Also, the school runs almost 24 hrs a day, so there aren't many planes sitting in the hangar overnight.

As for the large amount of safety issues, MFC has the biggest flight school in Canada and the amount of CADORs is on a fairly consistant average with the national average. The four incidents in the last few days? An unfortunate streak of bad luck that, on a long term graph, would be a quick blip. There are several hundred students between our 2 bases, mistakes will be made by them no matter how well they are trained.

If anyone thinks students go solo without going on a supervisory, that is wrong. As another post mentioned it is a legal requirement, and signed documentation is verified by transport canada. This is a requirement of all class 4 instructors with no exceptions. Once they meet transport canada's qualifications to upgrade, they no longer require the direct supervision. Additionally, MFC can choose to supervise class 3 instructors if they feel it's necessary.

Are there problems at MFC? Yes, but the stuff you've been spitting out here is wrong and placing the blame on the wrong people.

Honestly as a parent it is difficult for me to deal with these issues.

My son does not want me to approach the school as he fears this will effect his career.

He says the pilot community is tightly knit. He fears if I complain his chances of becoming a flight instructor might be jeopardized. Not only that but he feels future career opportunities might be jeopardized.

My son constantly complains of many other issues.

The aircraft fleet is constantly down for maintenance. This makes it difficult to make flight bookings. Then he is constantly given a hard time in regards to being behind in regards to flying hours!

Out of the 6 Cessna 172's 2 are flying.
Out of the dozen Dimonds about half are flying.
Out of the 4 twin Seminoles 1 is flying.

He mentioned that besides the Diamond aircraft the school is constantly purchasing old aircraft which end up constantly being down for maintenance if not complete lemons spending 70% or more time in maintenance!

He says this may be thanks to the maintenance department. They seem to be on bankers hours and work as slow a molasses. Don't even think of entering their department to ask a questions about an aircraft without a lashing. Maybe they forgot who is paying their salaries?

From my understand most maintenance is done during the evenings with most airlines and flight schools... I guess not at MFC. The longer the aircraft are down sitting in a hanger at night the better!?!

His instructors are constantly complaining VERY publicly of the many existing issues and bad job conditions. Most are desperate for other work.

The place is a mess!

When we first took a tour of the school we were very impressed, now we are very disappointed.

[SeptRepair]

theboard,
It may have not occured to you that the stress level involved with trying to keep a fleet of aircraft in AIRWORTHY condition, while flight instructors are constantly nipping at your heels to get them done because they have an unrealistic amount of students stacked- up, is quite high.

Not to mention the chicken shit snags they write up that have you focusing you valuable time clearing that defect. Thats the biggest problem maintaining flight school aircraft. The pilots/instructors are so green, their comprehension of what is and isnt a defect is minimal. To err on the side of caution they snag every little thing and then have you jump through their hoops to dismiss it. Of course you then have to spend extra time educating them as to why you find their problem insignificant and hope to god they don't start challenging you that they know better. Ever had to deal with one of those know it alls? Add all that up and the low wages that you get, is it any wonder why schools/ small AMO's are having problems attracting engineers?

[mfcstudent]

Not to mention the chicken @#$! snags they write up that have you focusing you valuable time clearing that defect. Thats the biggest problem maintaining flight school aircraft. The pilots/instructors are so green, their comprehension of what is and isnt a defect is minimal. To err on the side of caution they snag every little thing and then have you jump through their hoops to dismiss it. Of course you then have to spend extra time educating them as to why you find their problem insignificant and hope to god they don't start challenging you that they know better. Ever had to deal with one of those know it alls? Add all that up and the low wages that you get, is it any wonder why schools/ small AMO's are having problems attracting engineers?

No snag is chicken %#@!

[SeptRepair]

Judging by your screen name, mfcstudent, you are the know it all that i was talking about.

[sky's the limit]

No snag is chicken %#@!

Actually MFC,

There are lots of snags that are deferable quite safely. That's why we have deferred defect lists, and in larger machines, MEL's(Minimum Equipment Lists).

There is however normally a relatively quick procedure for the AME's to defer the offending snag, to be rectified at a later date. If the snag is groundable, the AME's will fix it. ALL groundable snags should be reported, but there are many that are not.

At the Flight School level however, it's not for inexperienced Instructors to decide, that's why the pay the AME's way more than the gals/guys teaching you.

stl

[mfcstudent]

Judging by your screen name, mfcstudent, you are the know it all that i was talking about.

Just because I disagree with your comment does not mean I am a "know it all". In fact, I know that I am far from knowing it all which is exactly why I'm a student.


skys the limit:
I understand about deferrals and things like that. I meant it as if there is a problem with the a/c, you should have maintenance take a look at it... even if you don't snag right away.

[Meecka]

No snag is chicken %#@!

Really?

And I quote: "Threads pulling out of the carpet". Actual snag I got some while back from a student. The carpet threads were NOT impeeding the seat movement, and not causing an unairworthyness issue. I agree that sometimes the students tend to snag the ridiculous!

STL... Indeed, you are correct, the lazyness thing is tought on AMT courses! And my coffee has to be an espresso, which takes longer, but thats ok!!!!

[sky's the limit]

MFC,

You're right, if you see a problem with an aircraft, report it to someone who either has the knowledge to defer it, or the means to fix it. Flying a serviceable aircraft is the first part of the equation, and it's your responsibility.

If that's a habit you can get into early in your career, you'll be ok. There is some etiquette to these matters however..! Snaging EVERYTHING like paint chips, or tears in the carpet will quickly put you in the AME's bad books....Lol


Meeka,

Just kidding, you know that right??? LOL As for espresso.... I can't work without it either! Christ, maybe I'm an AME at heart????? Nawwwwww.... whew, that was close!

stl

[mfcstudent]

And I quote: "Threads pulling out of the carpet". Actual snag I got some while back from a student. The carpet threads were NOT impeeding the seat movement, and not causing an unairworthyness issue. I agree that sometimes the students tend to snag the ridiculous!

If the student was trained properly, then they would have known that there is no reason to snag for that.
Anyway I'm pretty sure this topic isn't about me knowing what counts as a snag or not.