Jazz to AC
Moderators: sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, lilfssister, North Shore, I WAS Birddog
-
auxtransfer
- Rank 2
- Posts: 57
- Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2005 4:25 pm
Jazz to AC
Has anyone recently made the move to AC from Jazz, with 2 years of service at Jazz? If so would you PM me, I have a question about years of credit and pay. Thanks
Re: Jazz to AC
What happens to the AC/ACR LOU when ACE divest the final 9% of Jazz in spring 2008?
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: Jazz to AC
Below are excerpts from LOU 18.
You must remember this was written in 1995 when AC owned 5 separate connector airlines. I
It is hereby agreed that the opportunity of orderly advancement onto the Air Canada Pilots’ System Seniority List shall be made available to all pilots employed by Air Canada Connector Airlines in accordance with the following provisions
Pilots in L18.01 above will be offered position vacancies in order of seniority from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines. This list will be compiled subject to the Labour Laws of Canada.
L18.07 If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline, then the pilots of that carrier will be removed from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines, subject to the Laws of Canada.
You must remember this was written in 1995 when AC owned 5 separate connector airlines. I
It is hereby agreed that the opportunity of orderly advancement onto the Air Canada Pilots’ System Seniority List shall be made available to all pilots employed by Air Canada Connector Airlines in accordance with the following provisions
Pilots in L18.01 above will be offered position vacancies in order of seniority from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines. This list will be compiled subject to the Labour Laws of Canada.
L18.07 If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline, then the pilots of that carrier will be removed from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines, subject to the Laws of Canada.
Re: Jazz to AC
Reads pretty clear - the clock is running........Brick Head wrote:L18.07 If there is a total sale or divestiture of any Air Canada Connector Airline, then the pilots of that carrier will be removed from the Combined Seniority List of Air Canada Connector Airlines, subject to the Laws of Canada.
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: Jazz to AC
My guess is the alarm already went off.
Flt Ops said last fall they would try to clean up the back log of
Jazz pilots being held back at Jazz under the LOU by this spring.
Since the last class is tomorrow. Anyone out there with a job offer from AC, under the terms of LOU 18, but not yet at AC?
Flt Ops said last fall they would try to clean up the back log of
Jazz pilots being held back at Jazz under the LOU by this spring.
Since the last class is tomorrow. Anyone out there with a job offer from AC, under the terms of LOU 18, but not yet at AC?
-
Stick-Shaker
- Rank 4
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:39 pm
Re: Jazz to AC
Enough already. Enough. I would prefer to move up the ACPA list someday.
If it ain't fried, it ain't chicken baby!
Re: Jazz to AC
Stick-Shaker wrote:Enough already. Enough. I would prefer to move up the ACPA list someday.
These people were hired before you anyway Stick-Shaker. They are not jumping ahead of you on the list. They were just held back at Jazz and prevented from coming over to the property.
Scope. Not just a mouthwash.
-
Stick-Shaker
- Rank 4
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:39 pm
Re: Jazz to AC
Sage:
Its not like we don't accept the reality, we just don't like it. Nor would you if the roles were reversed. LOU 18 is what it is. My thoughts are that there are 2 separate OC's, therefore its 2 separate companies. Why should a Jazz pilot get a hiring/salary advantage over someone off the street? It was each and every Jazz pilots individual choice to accept the job there. What advantage and benefit is it to AC to allow Jazz pilots over to the mainline? I can't see one. My opinion, if you choose to leave Jazz, then you should have to start over at the bottom like everyone else has had to do (not unlike every other job you have had in this industry).
I do believe that Jazz pilots should be hired, but with the same rules that govern off the street new-hires such as pay-progression, seniority, and salary. Fortunately for me, there have only been a minimal number that have leapfrogged ahead of me (leapfrogging sounds derogatory, but its not meant to be. Its just how it is often referred to). But I have seen many negatively affected by LOU 18, and it has an impact on their moral. These unfair circumstances only serve to create animosity and resentment amongst the pilot group. I don't expect you to agree with me. But I hope you see my logic and understand that this organization would be healthier if all pilots were treated equally.
Its not like we don't accept the reality, we just don't like it. Nor would you if the roles were reversed. LOU 18 is what it is. My thoughts are that there are 2 separate OC's, therefore its 2 separate companies. Why should a Jazz pilot get a hiring/salary advantage over someone off the street? It was each and every Jazz pilots individual choice to accept the job there. What advantage and benefit is it to AC to allow Jazz pilots over to the mainline? I can't see one. My opinion, if you choose to leave Jazz, then you should have to start over at the bottom like everyone else has had to do (not unlike every other job you have had in this industry).
I do believe that Jazz pilots should be hired, but with the same rules that govern off the street new-hires such as pay-progression, seniority, and salary. Fortunately for me, there have only been a minimal number that have leapfrogged ahead of me (leapfrogging sounds derogatory, but its not meant to be. Its just how it is often referred to). But I have seen many negatively affected by LOU 18, and it has an impact on their moral. These unfair circumstances only serve to create animosity and resentment amongst the pilot group. I don't expect you to agree with me. But I hope you see my logic and understand that this organization would be healthier if all pilots were treated equally.
If it ain't fried, it ain't chicken baby!
Re: Jazz to AC
I don't think Jazz pilots have any hiring advantage over "off the street". I think it actually puts them at a disadvantage for going to AC. A great deal of Jazz pilots I know have gotten PFO's, and the ratio is I'm sure at least equal or likely higher than off the street guys.
DEI = Didn’t Earn It
-
bobcaygeon
- Rank 7
- Posts: 729
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am
Re: Jazz to AC
Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story 
Explain to me how paying the Jazz pilots for their company service negatively affects your career??? It's not going to go into your pocket, it would go into uncle milty's pocket!!!!Their senority would have been the same either way.
PS Your pilot group has many, many internal issues that are create far larger fractures than this. Seeing as both you and the Jazz pilots are junior at AC (and a relative minority) you should probably work together so that your interests are represented by your union come 2009.
Explain to me how paying the Jazz pilots for their company service negatively affects your career??? It's not going to go into your pocket, it would go into uncle milty's pocket!!!!Their senority would have been the same either way.
PS Your pilot group has many, many internal issues that are create far larger fractures than this. Seeing as both you and the Jazz pilots are junior at AC (and a relative minority) you should probably work together so that your interests are represented by your union come 2009.
-
Stick-Shaker
- Rank 4
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:39 pm
Re: Jazz to AC
Poor phraseology on my behalf.Inverted2 wrote:I don't think Jazz pilots have any hiring advantage over "off the street". I think it actually puts them at a disadvantage for going to AC. A great deal of Jazz pilots I know have gotten PFO's, and the ratio is I'm sure at least equal or likely higher than off the street guys.
I agree, I think the "hiring" criteria is the same. What I mean is that once hired at AC, we should be considered equals when it comes to pay progression and seniority regardless if you are off-the-street or ex-Jazz. And that is why ACPA is currently in arbitration over this particular PP issue.
If it ain't fried, it ain't chicken baby!
Re: Jazz to AC
True, but shouldn't someone who has been doing flights at Jazz for Air Canada under the CPA (capacity purchase agreement) for 2 or more years get at least something over someone who has never had any affiliation with the AC network?
DEI = Didn’t Earn It
-
Stick-Shaker
- Rank 4
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:39 pm
Re: Jazz to AC
Just to clarify, there are 2 separate pay issues. The first is years of service carried over from Jazz that determines salary once at AC. This, I personally have no issue with other than the fact a brand new pilot at AC, hired off the street makes considerable less than an ex-Jazz pilot who starts the same day. My question is why not distribute the salary budget more evenly across the board when it comes to new hires. I won't quote numbers, but the differences are considerable.bobcaygeon wrote:Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story
Explain to me how paying the Jazz pilots for their company service negatively affects your career??? It's not going to go into your pocket, it would go into uncle milty's pocket!!!!Their senority would have been the same either way.
The second issue is the pay progression which determines when a new hire receives incremental pay rates. The PP dates differ if you are ex-Jazz, or off the street even if you start class on the same day. In some cases PP dates differ by 90 days. That translates into thousands of dollars. This is the current issue under arbitration.
And you are correct, there are many other fractures within the company that some would argue are a bigger threat. But sometimes the small cracks can be easier to fix.
If it ain't fried, it ain't chicken baby!
-
Stick-Shaker
- Rank 4
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:39 pm
Re: Jazz to AC
Don't get too mad at me, but in my opinion, with all due respect, No.Inverted2 wrote:True, but shouldn't someone who has been doing flights at Jazz for Air Canada under the CPA (capacity purchase agreement) for 2 or more years get at least something over someone who has never had any affiliation with the AC network?
You get to keep the same uniform...isn't that enough?
In all seriousness, I go back to the fact that its a choice to work at Jazz. And one shouldn't go to Jazz hoping that its a backdoor to AC. Offered a job at Jazz, get a job at Jazz. Nothing more. If you choose to go elsewhere, start over like everyone else.Anyway, don't take my position as hostile, I'm really not. I feel very fortunate to be here, and I welcome all to a great company.
If it ain't fried, it ain't chicken baby!
Re: Jazz to AC
I really don't want to jump into this mess but here goes......
Why did Jazz enter CCAA the same time as Air Canada? Because we were owned fully by AC at the time.
Why did Jazz pilots have to take cuts to keep the AC family (ACE) alive? Because we were owned fully by AC at the time.
Will we really be fully separate soon? Jazz owns 3 Dash-8's. The rest are "covered aircraft" under the CPA ultimately owned or leased by AC holding companies.
Should Jazz Pilots at least get a reward for their service then? If not why did we have to join in the suffering?
And a last note, the Company (or Companies soon) are the only ones who benefit from the Pilots fighting each other.
Why did Jazz enter CCAA the same time as Air Canada? Because we were owned fully by AC at the time.
Why did Jazz pilots have to take cuts to keep the AC family (ACE) alive? Because we were owned fully by AC at the time.
Will we really be fully separate soon? Jazz owns 3 Dash-8's. The rest are "covered aircraft" under the CPA ultimately owned or leased by AC holding companies.
Should Jazz Pilots at least get a reward for their service then? If not why did we have to join in the suffering?
And a last note, the Company (or Companies soon) are the only ones who benefit from the Pilots fighting each other.
-
SouthIsland
- Rank 2
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2006 8:47 pm
- Location: West Coast
Re: Jazz to AC
jhartleb wrote:I really don't want to jump into this mess but here goes......
Why did Jazz enter CCAA the same time as Air Canada? Because we were owned fully by AC at the time.
Why did Jazz pilots have to take cuts to keep the AC family (ACE) alive? Because we were owned fully by AC at the time.
Will we really be fully separate soon? Jazz owns 3 Dash-8's. The rest are "covered aircraft" under the CPA ultimately owned or leased by AC holding companies.
Should Jazz Pilots at least get a reward for their service then? If not why did we have to join in the suffering?
And a last note, the Company (or Companies soon) are the only ones who benefit from the Pilots fighting each other.
Well said!
Re: Jazz to AC
Hey stick-shaker, are you done whinning yet?
The so-called leap-frog you whine about does not exist. Those pilots were hired with that seniority and the only reason they were not occupying the seat was because of an agreement that was made up without the pilot's input. They were held back out of AC service and frozen at Jazz against their will. Hardly what I would call a seperate company.
Maybe if we are so seperate, next time AC files for CCAA, Jazz can remain out of it and not take pay cuts? Georgian didn't go through it so why should Jazz? Oops, unless you are a whiney ass-munch new hire at AC, you would know that AC has been the owner of Jazz for quite some time.
The way I see it, you should be happy with the way things are. 1. you got to enjoy a period of time where your seniority held bids that were higher than you should have since a bunch of guys that have senior numbers to you were not allowed to be on the poperty. 2. If Jazz was not owned by AC, they would have hired more guys from that company than they did through this shitty agreement. Don't believe me? Look at where WestJet/Emirates and Cathay are doing their recruiting these days. The fact is, where else can airlines find guys with glass, jet/heavy turboprop, high density time, familiarity with the AC system, willing to leave their jobs in a heartbeat and well trained in 2 crew SOPs in this part of the world? Aside from Jazz, what is out there? Not many companies compare.
Maybe you should just be thankful you are where you are and not worry about why someone else is getting more peanuts than you. The fact is, there is no advantage hiring wise to being a Jazz pilot and some might argue that it works against you. Let me ask you this, was AC able to contact your previous employer and gain access to your sick day records? Was AC able to tell your last employer to keep the pilot frozen for 2 years but only if said pilot signed a form allowing AC access to your service record? At your previous employer, when AC filed for CCAA, did you take a pay cut alongside them? At your previous employer, did AC have a scope clause on you? At your previous employer, could you be hired by AC, frozen for a period of time and then turned down by AC at a further date based on something that happened at your old job while you were stuck there instead of being at AC from your original hire date?
You may have a sense of entitlement due to your hard times coming off the street but trust me, you have nothing to whine about and certainly don't have the right to bitch about what the Jazz guys get until you know all the facts!!! I suspect you would whine no matter what though!!!
The so-called leap-frog you whine about does not exist. Those pilots were hired with that seniority and the only reason they were not occupying the seat was because of an agreement that was made up without the pilot's input. They were held back out of AC service and frozen at Jazz against their will. Hardly what I would call a seperate company.
Maybe if we are so seperate, next time AC files for CCAA, Jazz can remain out of it and not take pay cuts? Georgian didn't go through it so why should Jazz? Oops, unless you are a whiney ass-munch new hire at AC, you would know that AC has been the owner of Jazz for quite some time.
The way I see it, you should be happy with the way things are. 1. you got to enjoy a period of time where your seniority held bids that were higher than you should have since a bunch of guys that have senior numbers to you were not allowed to be on the poperty. 2. If Jazz was not owned by AC, they would have hired more guys from that company than they did through this shitty agreement. Don't believe me? Look at where WestJet/Emirates and Cathay are doing their recruiting these days. The fact is, where else can airlines find guys with glass, jet/heavy turboprop, high density time, familiarity with the AC system, willing to leave their jobs in a heartbeat and well trained in 2 crew SOPs in this part of the world? Aside from Jazz, what is out there? Not many companies compare.
Maybe you should just be thankful you are where you are and not worry about why someone else is getting more peanuts than you. The fact is, there is no advantage hiring wise to being a Jazz pilot and some might argue that it works against you. Let me ask you this, was AC able to contact your previous employer and gain access to your sick day records? Was AC able to tell your last employer to keep the pilot frozen for 2 years but only if said pilot signed a form allowing AC access to your service record? At your previous employer, when AC filed for CCAA, did you take a pay cut alongside them? At your previous employer, did AC have a scope clause on you? At your previous employer, could you be hired by AC, frozen for a period of time and then turned down by AC at a further date based on something that happened at your old job while you were stuck there instead of being at AC from your original hire date?
You may have a sense of entitlement due to your hard times coming off the street but trust me, you have nothing to whine about and certainly don't have the right to bitch about what the Jazz guys get until you know all the facts!!! I suspect you would whine no matter what though!!!
-
bobcaygeon
- Rank 7
- Posts: 729
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am
Re: Jazz to AC
stick shaker
I will share the numbers for you. Eight (8) years at Jazz gets you approx. $4100/ month at mainline vs $3100 for OTS and an additional week of vacation. Thats $125 for every year of service. Don't get me wrong it is appreciated.
It also gets you the ability to be EMB first officer for the 200 hr pilot you line indoc'd 9 years ago cause experience didn't count when it came to AC interviews for Jazz pilots.
I love how you mention equality of pay but only of new hires. That's funny considering that the top line pilot (training pilot wages would make it even worse) at AC makes almost 7 times as much as a new hire. Throw in what it costs to cover his pension/ top hat and if he gave up $2/hr (1%) then a new hire would be able to eat real KD (not no name).
Join your junior members in solidarity to influence those above you. Nothing happens in a union unless the senior "big dogs" want it to.
I will share the numbers for you. Eight (8) years at Jazz gets you approx. $4100/ month at mainline vs $3100 for OTS and an additional week of vacation. Thats $125 for every year of service. Don't get me wrong it is appreciated.
It also gets you the ability to be EMB first officer for the 200 hr pilot you line indoc'd 9 years ago cause experience didn't count when it came to AC interviews for Jazz pilots.
I love how you mention equality of pay but only of new hires. That's funny considering that the top line pilot (training pilot wages would make it even worse) at AC makes almost 7 times as much as a new hire. Throw in what it costs to cover his pension/ top hat and if he gave up $2/hr (1%) then a new hire would be able to eat real KD (not no name).
Join your junior members in solidarity to influence those above you. Nothing happens in a union unless the senior "big dogs" want it to.
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: Jazz to AC
Well,
This is exactly why the LOU needs to expire.
By the way I view the LOU as far more harmful to the Jazz pilots than the benefits.
No one hear has mentioned two years less into the pension. Oh, but you can buy it back out of your own pocket.
I think everyone is arguing over something that will have expired by the time AC hires again.
Does anyone out there, know of anyone, that has a job offer under the terms of LOU 18 but is not yet at AC.
This is exactly why the LOU needs to expire.
By the way I view the LOU as far more harmful to the Jazz pilots than the benefits.
No one hear has mentioned two years less into the pension. Oh, but you can buy it back out of your own pocket.
I think everyone is arguing over something that will have expired by the time AC hires again.
Does anyone out there, know of anyone, that has a job offer under the terms of LOU 18 but is not yet at AC.
-
bobcaygeon
- Rank 7
- Posts: 729
- Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 8:03 am
-
Brick Head
- Rank 8
- Posts: 882
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2005 4:37 pm
Re: Jazz to AC
thanks,
Unique circumstances, not sure that one would apply.
Hope everything works out.
Unique circumstances, not sure that one would apply.
Hope everything works out.
-
Stick-Shaker
- Rank 4
- Posts: 245
- Joined: Sat Jul 31, 2004 3:39 pm
Re: Jazz to AC
Wow Traf. Impressive display of your so-called facts. I'm beginning to feel sorry for you.
I'm not sure if I was whining, but I'm convinced you just did. But, cool down big fella. It’s a pointless argument. As one post said, thats why the LOU needs to go away. I won't pretend to agree with your perspective, but I will give you credit as you did make a good point or two.
Traf wrote:Hey stick-shaker, are you done whinning yet?
I'm not sure if I was whining, but I'm convinced you just did. But, cool down big fella. It’s a pointless argument. As one post said, thats why the LOU needs to go away. I won't pretend to agree with your perspective, but I will give you credit as you did make a good point or two.
I completely agree. The junior member has become a much larger percentage of the vote, and I believe we are being heard.bobcaygeon wrote: Join your junior members in solidarity to influence those above you. Nothing happens in a union unless the senior "big dogs" want it to.
Last edited by Stick-Shaker on Mon Apr 07, 2008 3:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
If it ain't fried, it ain't chicken baby!
Re: Jazz to AC
Traf: No need to get personal. It's really hilarious that the majority of the stuff you post is total BS.
Georgian took massive reductions to it's CPA rates. The company ate the costs rather than passing them onto the employees until the contract expired. When it did the employee group agreed to a B pay scale to help keep the company afloat. Georgian was also scoped, that's the sole reason that you're going to continue flying dash-8's without competition until your CPA expires.
Moral of the story: Before you shoot off calling people names, and posting things as fact. Do some research, else you'll come off as the hard done by whiner.
Georgian took massive reductions to it's CPA rates. The company ate the costs rather than passing them onto the employees until the contract expired. When it did the employee group agreed to a B pay scale to help keep the company afloat. Georgian was also scoped, that's the sole reason that you're going to continue flying dash-8's without competition until your CPA expires.
Moral of the story: Before you shoot off calling people names, and posting things as fact. Do some research, else you'll come off as the hard done by whiner.
Re: Jazz to AC
Was I wrong in saying GGN did not take a pay cut alongside the mainline guys? No, you just proved. GGN, the company ate the CPA re-negots and the guys that were flying there chose a B scale pay. To me, that means they did not suffer a pay cut, just the new hires.
As for scope, GGN is not scoped by mainline, they are scoped by Jazz. The difference is, Jazz has never implemented a freeze on GGN pilots, never asked for access to their work records yadda yadda yadda.
What part of my post is BS? Everything I said was true. AC does all those things to Jazz pilots and does not do them to off the street guys. Same company? Yeah when it suits them! there is no advantage to being a Jazz guy trying to get to mainline. Maybe you need to do some research before you come in playing the "smartie-pants".
As for scope, GGN is not scoped by mainline, they are scoped by Jazz. The difference is, Jazz has never implemented a freeze on GGN pilots, never asked for access to their work records yadda yadda yadda.
What part of my post is BS? Everything I said was true. AC does all those things to Jazz pilots and does not do them to off the street guys. Same company? Yeah when it suits them! there is no advantage to being a Jazz guy trying to get to mainline. Maybe you need to do some research before you come in playing the "smartie-pants".
Re: Jazz to AC
You're totally right, you're the most hard done by guy out there. You even more than anyone else from Jazz, you've had it sooooooo hard. What can I do to right all the wrongs done to you?
