NTSB Recommendations - Glider Operations

[CD]

NTSB Safety Recommendations A-08-10 through -13

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NTSB SAFETY RECOMMENDATION
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National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

March 31, 2008

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Safety Recommendations A-08-10 through -13

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The National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the Federal Aviation Administration:

Remove the glider exemptions from the Federal Aviation Regulations that pertain to transponder requirements and use. (A-08-10)

Develop guidance material for glider owners/operators that describes feasible installation options to aid in the prompt installation and approval of transponders in gliders. (A-08-11)

Establish a national transponder code for glider operations, as low in the transponder code range as feasible, that would notify air traffic controllers of glider operation/position. (A-08-12)

Upon establishment of a national transponder code for glider operations, as per Safety Recommendation A-08-12, ensure that air traffic control personnel are informed of the code, what it represents, and under what limitations the users are typically operating. (A-08-13)

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Complete recommendation letter here...

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[Four1oh]

ITS ABOUT GODDAMN TIME GLIDERS HAD TRANSPONDERS

[ahramin]

The problem is power. Many gliders already have transponders, but do not carry enough battery power to keep them on for even 1/4 of the normal flight time. It is usually a case of turn it on, get identified, then turn it off again.

[visual approach]

The cadet gliders in BC are being (some have already been) equipped with transponders. It is a mode C transponder/radio unit and the battery life is more than enough for a full day of gliding with them left on all day.

[black hole]

Cadet gliders are just gliders(not Sail Planes) and never leave sight of the airport. Sailplanes on the other hand are sometimes up for 5 to 6 hours or more. Maybe further advancements in solar power!!?


Bh

[Adam Oke]

ITS ABOUT GODDAMN TIME GLIDERS HAD TRANSPONDERS

Why?

It'd be interesting to give your reasoning as to what makes a transponder save lives. Not too long ago I witnessed a midair between two light aircraft killing 3 pilots. Transponder equipt. Didn't save their lives.

I'm not for it, and I'm not against it as I recognise the pro's when it comes to serious high level soaring.

[visual approach]

Cadet gliders are just gliders(not Sail Planes) and never leave sight of the airport. Sailplanes on the other hand are sometimes up for 5 to 6 hours or more.
Bh

true they don't leave sight of the airport, but, as I said we leave the radio/transponder unit (turn transponder to standby when on the ground) turned on for the day of flying (8-10 hours) and the batteries are fine.

[Four1oh]

ITS ABOUT GODDAMN TIME GLIDERS HAD TRANSPONDERS

Why?

It'd be interesting to give your reasoning as to what makes a transponder save lives. Not too long ago I witnessed a midair between two light aircraft killing 3 pilots. Transponder equipt. Didn't save their lives.

I'm not for it, and I'm not against it as I recognise the pro's when it comes to serious high level soaring.

I'll keep my answer as simple as possible. It's only luck that airliners haven't had mid-air collisions with gliders. Secondly, there's a lot of large planes out there equipped with TCAS systems that would make a difference if the gliders had mode c. Third, even if there's 2 planes out there with mode c, at least ATC could have the heads up to keep them apart. Yes, mid-airs still happen, but I can almost use up all the fingers on my hands with stories of very close calls that could have ended my life had it not been for mode C and a TCAS.

[invertedattitude]

I wonder if a sort of RAT setup could power a transponder without effecting too much drag?

[Adam Oke]

What's your take on PCAS manditory for gliders as an alternative?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_C ... nce_System

Cheap, effective, a couple AA Batteries and you're laughing. I have seen these becoming more and more popular on the field, and have flown with one personally. Fantastic little machine. I would much rather have PCAS than a transponder. I'm told direction, distance, increasing or decreasing in closure.

Having flown gliders with transponders I have never been warned of approaching aircraft. Mind you I havn't flown high level IFR environment stuff in a glider yet. I can see such a small area being affected by gliders (higher altitudes) and it making a large impact on rules and regulations effecting more than what its worth. As much as general aviation should protect it's airspace it should protect it's equipment as well.

[ahramin]

true they don't leave sight of the airport, but, as I said we leave the radio/transponder unit (turn transponder to standby when on the ground) turned on for the day of flying (8-10 hours) and the batteries are fine.

That is fine when you spend at most half of your time in the air and the only thing you are powering is the radio/transponder. When you are in the air for 6+ hours powering radio, transponder, GPS, and Variometer you run out of power long before the end of the flight even with two big batteries.

Solar power may soon get to the point where it makes the difference but it's not there yet.

[Four1oh]

What's your take on PCAS manditory for gliders as an alternative?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_C ... nce_System

Cheap, effective, a couple AA Batteries and you're laughing. I have seen these becoming more and more popular on the field, and have flown with one personally. Fantastic little machine. I would much rather have PCAS than a transponder. I'm told direction, distance, increasing or decreasing in closure.

Having flown gliders with transponders I have never been warned of approaching aircraft. Mind you I havn't flown high level IFR environment stuff in a glider yet. I can see such a small area being affected by gliders (higher altitudes) and it making a large impact on rules and regulations effecting more than what its worth. As much as general aviation should protect it's airspace it should protect it's equipment as well.

If a TCAS aircraft can see you with this system, then I'm all for it. I'm not sure you understand how mode C works. If all you have is a mode C transponder, you will be transmitting your flight info to airplanes and ATC units that can use the data to avoid you, or in the case of ATC, move airplanes away from you.

[visual approach]

When you are in the air for 6+ hours powering radio, transponder, GPS, and Variometer you run out of power long before the end of the flight even with two big batteries.

I guess it just comes down to priorities. I'm not saying that mode C is the answer, but in busier airspace it sure is handy for ATC to know where you are/pass on conflicts. I know I would be willing to give up the GPS for a piece of equipment that is ultimately going to make for a safer flight. On the other hand, if I was soaring in class G in the middle of no where, I would prefer the GPS.

[looproll]

http://www.nbcsandiego.com/news/9754902/detail.html

http://www.ntsb.gov/recs/letters/2008/A08_10_13.pdf

[niko]

What's your take on PCAS manditory for gliders as an alternative?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_C ... nce_System

Cheap, effective, a couple AA Batteries and you're laughing. I have seen these becoming more and more popular on the field, and have flown with one personally. Fantastic little machine. I would much rather have PCAS than a transponder. I'm told direction, distance, increasing or decreasing in closure.

Having flown gliders with transponders I have never been warned of approaching aircraft. Mind you I havn't flown high level IFR environment stuff in a glider yet. I can see such a small area being affected by gliders (higher altitudes) and it making a large impact on rules and regulations effecting more than what its worth. As much as general aviation should protect it's airspace it should protect it's equipment as well.

Your PCAS can see me but I can't see you. That's my problem. I can only see you if you have a transponder. The PCAS is only a passive system. It doesn't always work! You can't see me if the area does not have any radar coverage.

ATC will advise me when they see you on PSR. They can tell me where you are but they can't tell me how high you are.

Do everyone a favor, install a Mode C transponder on your glider!

[Adam Oke]

Your PCAS can see me but I can't see you. That's my problem. I can only see you if you have a transponder. The PCAS is only a passive system. It doesn't always work! You can't see me if the area does not have any radar coverage.

ATC will advise me when they see you on PSR. They can tell me where you are but they can't tell me how high you are.

Do everyone a favor, install a Mode C transponder on your glider!

I'm merely playing devils advocate here.

With Mode C I can't see you. But with PCAS I can. Your 'problem' can be reversed. Mode C does show me to you and increases saftey ... provided it's on and working. It doesn't always work! Battery power is still an issue, and there is also a reason as to why heavy metal is usually equipt with two transponders. Gliders are not seen on PSR because they rule out anything that travels below the range of 40kts so numerous birds do not bleep away to PSR.

Gliders fly in VFR conditions only and sometimes in airspace with VFR and IFR traffic. If wx permits, IFR traffic should be looking out the window ... not doing the weight and balance for your last departure.

Mode C will increase saftey. I'll give you that. But it is not going to resolve the issue.

For the record, I do not own a glider ( Someday ... ), but a transponder is something I will invest in. Along with my PCAS.

[small penguin]

My 2 cents but.. I think transponders in gliders is a bad idea unless the glider spends all of its time 10,000 and above.. (or even 20k and up).

For starters, a lot of gliders dont have electrical systems. Lets take that kind of glider as an example. Now the owner has to get an electrical system and battery in place = money. Now he has to buy a lightweight and power sipping transponder = more money. Then he has to get his altimeter tested every 2 years = a little more money, and finally, he has to get a correlation test done every 2 years = a huge more amount of money.

Now all of a sudden his glider is costing him a lot more cash, it probably weighs an extra 10 pounds, and he's got to deal with extra paperwork, maintenance bills, and hope the battery holds the mode C for the duration of his flight.

I dont think a PCAS will help much. Its better for a 250kts jet to see a 50kts glider than vice versa. And a GPS (unless Im missing something) is utterly useless for avoiding traffic.

IMO... a transponder in the glider is not the answer. My finger points to airspaces. After all, how many airPLANES are flying in the same airspace as those gliders without a transponder?

[Four1oh]

And the day a glider pilot never leaves the designated gliding area or altitude to get better lift 'just over there', there will never be a problem. So, how many people will have to die this time to get this made into law?

[just curious]

Adam,

For years I was a glider guy. And for the most part, a transponder would have done nothing, since we were always at 2000 agl and struglling down, nowwhere near airways.

A guy on a cross country west to east going across the GTA say Rockton to the old Ommeemee glider field would be crossing a bunch of airways. On a good day, he would be just below the Cu where an aircraft on descent to YYZ or Buttonville would be at their speed limit, about 3 times the cruise of a glider. A machine with a PCAS, by the time it acquires a target, is gonna have a really tought time avoiding a max speed target, whereas a target on the screen means if ATC doesn't catch it, TCAS will be screaming "traffic" loud enough to manoevere quickly.

Four 1 Oh is correct in indicating a need for it on the part of cross country machines. For those machines at the Wave camp in Cowley, where machines get up to 20 grand, the aircraft likely to be heading for them ware even less manoeverable, and faster.

[. .]

Your PCAS can see me but I can't see you. That's my problem. I can only see you if you have a transponder. The PCAS is only a passive system. It doesn't always work! You can't see me if the area does not have any radar coverage.

ATC will advise me when they see you on PSR. They can tell me where you are but they can't tell me how high you are.

Do everyone a favor, install a Mode C transponder on your glider!

I'm merely playing devils advocate here.

With Mode C I can't see you. But with PCAS I can. Your 'problem' can be reversed. Mode C does show me to you and increases saftey ... provided it's on and working. It doesn't always work! Battery power is still an issue, and there is also a reason as to why heavy metal is usually equipt with two transponders. Gliders are not seen on PSR because they rule out anything that travels below the range of 40kts so numerous birds do not bleep away to PSR.

Gliders fly in VFR conditions only and sometimes in airspace with VFR and IFR traffic. If wx permits, IFR traffic should be looking out the window ... not doing the weight and balance for your last departure.

Mode C will increase saftey. I'll give you that. But it is not going to resolve the issue.

For the record, I do not own a glider ( Someday ... ), but a transponder is something I will invest in. Along with my PCAS.

Spoken like someone that's never flown real world IFR in busy airspace. The arrivals into YYZ which pass over YWT drive right over some very busy gliding areas. I can't count the number of times you're just passing through that area and your given a runway change, or hold, or something which is going to require you to go heads down. Any of those things are going to require one guy to go heads down for awhile, and the second guy to confirm that the correct things have been entered. Most planes heading into YYZ over YWT do have a TCAS though. Anytime both guys are too busy tyring to get things set up at the last minute and you get a TA or RA both sets of eyes are going outside.

[Four1oh]

on more than one occasion in the last 5 years, there has been a 'near miss' with airliners and gliders near Hamilton's airport. Only reported by the glider because they were nearly invisible to the pilots and truly invisible to ATC. Whenever the gliders are up in the Vernon area(north of kelowna) There's not much room to maneuver in a valley where there could well be a glider anywhere on the approach to 16 in YLW. People are going to get killed if these unpowered planes aren't easier to find in the sky. It's really as simple as that. If batteries are the problem, install a RAT, or, hey, how hard could it be to have a solar panel form fitted to the top of a wing or fuselage? These aren't high-draw devices, and why wouldn't you want to save your own life in busy airspace?

[visual approach]

why wouldn't you want to save your own life in busy airspace?

They would rather power their GPS's and that god forsaken beeping noise from their variometer. In my opinion, safety items come before luxury items such as these.

[CD]

NTSB Safety Recommendations A-08-14 and -15

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NTSB SAFETY RECOMMENDATION
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National Transportation Safety Board
Washington, DC 20594

March 31, 2008

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Safety Recommendations A-08-14 and -15

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The National Transportation Safety Board recommends that the Soaring Society of America:

Using the circumstances of the August 28, 2006, midair collision near Smith, Nevada, inform your members, glider clubs, chapters, and glider fixed-base operators of the circumstances of this accident and, through your publications, Web site, and conferences, as appropriate, use the information to encourage voluntary transponder installations and emphasize the importance of their use, as required by 14 Code of Federal Regulations 91.215(c). (A-08-14)

Encourage your members, glider clubs, chapters, and glider fixed-base operators to develop working groups with local air traffic control (ATC) facilities to develop and distribute detailed guidance and information related to air traffic routes, ATC radio communications, transponder use, and other pertinent information to improve the safety of glider and aircraft operations in their area. (A-08-15)

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Complete recommendation letter here...

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[Wilbur]

There's no reason gliders can't, and shouldn't be equipped with mode c when flying in areas or at altitudes that warrant it. I've owned an airplane with no electrical system and ran my VHF and transponder off battery in a high density VTA. I had two small, switchable, gel cell batteries that could each power both radio and transponder for about 4 hours. So, total time was about 8 hrs. The weight of the entire sytem was only about 15 lbs. Can't remember what it cost, but it was under $3k at the time (about 15 years ago).

Gliding is a hobby/sport. If that bit of extra weight has a small impact on glider performance, so what. What does it matter?

PS, Blackhole. While certainly unusual, the cadet gliders do engage in soaring from time to time. I have several flights in the old 2-33 that have gone over 4 hours and as high as 12.5.

[goates]

I bet the pilots of this Hawker would support mandatory transponders on gliders, and having them powered full time.

http://www.aero-news.net/Community/Disc ... &Refresh=1
http://jeremy.zawodny.com/blog/archives/007288.html