To BC GOV. Grow a set, put a Bounty on Bountiful!

[BoostedNihilist]

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/06/tex ... index.html

With this story, and the semi recent warren jeffs saga, I really wish the B.C. government would grow a set and take care of Bountiful. Quite often this sect is linked to the polygamist sect in Utah, where warren jeffs, now convicted, acted as dictator/child molester in chief.

We should all be outraged that a Bountiful can even exist in Canada. We should all be working to put an end to this repugnant and backwards mysogynistic fundamentalist division of the mormon faith.

I have been there. I have seen the hundreds of children under the care of a single young mother. I have seen the school where only boys are allowed to attend. I have also been chased away (so much for finding a date there) once they realised I was only there to take pictures and write articles. The men in this cult barely fall under the definition of the word and the women are so mentally bound by their oppressors that they will never, and can never know the true (albeit limited) form of Canadian freedom.

Boosted.

note: I personally have no problem with the true mormon faith.. that is to say, I give it about as much respect as I give all top down religion, but fundamentalist mormanism to me, is the true root of all evil, with its exploitation and brainwashing these children have no hope in ever developing their own thoughts and following their own path through life. Truely, an abhorrent fundamentalist religion.

[v6g]

I wonder how quickly the authorities would crack down on them if, instead of the media using the term "polygamy", they used the more correct term, "child rape".

[North Shore]

Polygamy, they can't do anything about, for fear of a Charter of Rights legal challenge to the law... child rape, what's taking so long??

[2R]

Not enough prisons to house all the religious deviants that abuse women and children in Canada .We would have to start hanging them !!!

[sky's the limit]

This isn't just the BC Gov't, it's the Feds too. The RCMP should have moved on this YEARS ago. The CBC did a big piece on it a few years ago, no excuses, we ALL know what's happening there.....

I'm ashamed we're allowing this in our country.... And you guys worry about a few turbans....


stl

[v6g]

I was passing through Creston last summer and thought I'd check out Bountiful seeing as I'd read so much about it. Well, after driving around the dot on the map called "Lister" for half an hour I never found anywhere resembling the commune I'd seen on the TV. Then, just as we were about to give up, we drove down the one dirt track we'd not yet explored - ahead of us in the middle of the road were two enormous dogs who started growling ferociously at our car. I don't know if I was heading the right way or not, but I do know a lot about dog training and these two beasts had clearly been trained to
i) Look nasty and scary
ii) Not get out of the way of an approaching vehicle.
iii) Hang around by the car doors on both sides.
iv) Not to negotiate or give up ground - most dogs when they detect a threat will gradually yield ground until you get to the core of their territory.

And this was in the middle of a designated public highway. I'd never been so intimidated and scared by dogs in my life - a nice way to keep out strangers.

Couldn't think of a more idyllic spot BTW than the Creston valley for such an enterprise. They must have done a lot of scouting to find such a place.

[BoostedNihilist]

It's sorta tucked away in there. You go over the goat river bridge and then drive about 1km and take a left... then follow it (its a long dirt road probably the one you were on) and somewhere down there is the compound. It is just what you would expect. As soon as I entered the colony I could feel the rifle scopes on me. The feeling of being not so alone in a big field was a bit much. I drove right in, got out of my car, started snapping pictures and when I watched a bunch of guys get into the back of a pickup truck and head my way I decided to 'overshoot, carb heat cold full power' out of there.

Yeah, the creston valley is a beautiful place. Lister had a wicked place to buy fireworks!!

Seriously though, I remember that CBC special.. leaving bountiful? I think it might have been called. I was way young when that came out but I still remember how revolting I found that cult from day one. It is sick that we are so afraid of violating our own charter, that we would stand idly by knowing full well that child exploitation is going on out in the open. Personally, I feel the RCMP should be more embarassed about this then their own unacceptable actions regarding the usage of 'energy' weapons.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Has Harper got any young daughters?

I wonder what he would do if his daughter was living in Bountiful?

Child molesters are the very bottom of humanity...correction they do not deserve to be included in humanity.

We should maybe hire a team of mercenaries to go in and clean out the place, the RCMP won't.

[2R]

So long as they are not the same kind of mercs used in Angola as none comes out when those dogs go in

[Widow]

Top court must decide polygamy issue, government told
Senior lawyers agree charges would be unlikely to survive an appeal
Andy Ivens, The Province; with a file from Reuters
Published: Tuesday, April 08, 2008

The provincial government will have to decide whether to send to the courts the question of the legality of practising polygamy in Bountiful, after a decision by a senior lawyer was made public yesterday.

Leonard Doust, a senior member of the B.C. bar, agreed with the conclusions of a special prosecutor last year -- that having the state pursue polygamy charges against members of the breakaway Mormon sect in the Creston Valley enclave near the U.S. border would likely fail.

Special prosecutor Richard Peck was appointed by Attorney-General Wally Oppal last year to submit a legal opinion on polygamy.

Section 293 of the Criminal Code prohibits "any form of polygamy [or] entering into a conjugal union with more than one person at the same time." The maximum penalty is five years in prison.

But Peck found the law likely would not survive a challenge under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms on the ground it infringes the constitutional guarantee to freedom of religion.

Oppal asked for another opinion from Doust, who agreed with Peck. His view was released yesterday.

"The serious misconduct in Bountiful will likely continue until the constitutionality of Sec. 293 is authoritatively decided by the Supreme Court of Canada," wrote Doust.

". . . Given both practical considerations and concerns about fairness, a reference [to the B.C. Court of Appeal] rather than a prosecution is the most appropriate way to proceed at this time," he said.

Doust also said that if the high court finds the law unconstitutional, its reasons "will force and assist the government of Canada to consider other, constitutional solutions to the problem of polygamy."

Despite the legal hurdles the judges and lawmakers would have to clear, Doust said he feels it would still be "the swiftest, most effective and fairest way of beginning to address . . . the problems in Bountiful."

The Bountiful residents are part of the Fundamentalist Church of Latter Day Saints, a breakaway sect of the Mormon church, which banned polygamy in the 1890s.

The polygamous community sprang up in Bountiful in the late 1940s.

Home to about 1,000 residents, it is part of the sect led by jailed U.S. polygamist leader Warren Jeffs that saw its Texas ranch raided last week in an investigation into allegations of abuse by a young woman at the compound.

Texas officials have removed at least 219 children and adults from the ranch, which lies about 200 kilometres northwest of San Antonio.

http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/ ... 4ca&k=4543

[2R]

So the Lawyers are saying that the Criminal code of Canada does not apply anymore ???
That people are free to commit crimes so long as it is orginized crime by groups of orginized criminals .
Perhaps the young women who are being denied their rights might disagree with some of the Lawyers and spineless gutless politicians who will not defend the rights of the young girls forced into slavery in a free country .

Tell me again why our troops are dying in Afghanistan ????so little girls and boys can have a future ???
When monsters like these child rapists roam free in Canada .
What use are the politicians ,police and jurists of B.C. If they allow this slavery to continue.

Set these girls free ,let them breath the free fresh air of a free Canada not the sweaty old odour of an old husband .Let them choose if they want a husband .A husband of their own free choice .The free choice that god has given them.
Let no man take that freedom from them .Are we not a free nation ???
Do our Lawyers Jurists and Politicians no longer believe in freedom.Will none fight to free these young women from Slavery
Are we to suffer the humiliation of being a nation associated with arranged child rape under the Arrangement of Religion .
We will have to Change the name of British Columbis as the British were the first to abolish the shame of slavery.
If Canada allows this perhaps the World will protest the olympic games in Whistler.Although god forbid we are still talking about this national shame .Gutless spineless politicians should hang their heads in shame for doing nothing to free these people from slavery .


cc- my MP
cc-my MLA

[SkyWolfe]

Well since they are in Canada they can just do what ever the hell they feel like... Or at least that's what I am gathering fromt he Canada post... Sorry, I am feeling rather bitchy today.

[JakeYYZ]

February 03, 2006, 8:05 a.m.
Dissolving Marriage
If everything is marriage, then nothing is.
Canada, you don’t know the half of it. In mid-January, Canada was rocked by news that a Justice Department study had called for the decriminalization and regulation of polygamy. Actually, two government studies recommended decriminalizing polygamy. (Only one has been reported on.) And even that is only part of the story. Canadians, let me be brutally frank. You are being played for a bunch of fools by your legal-political elite. Your elites mumble a confusing jargon to your face to keep you from understanding what they really have in mind.

Language Exam
Let’s try a little test. Translate the following phrases into English:
1) Canada needs to move “beyond conjugality.”

2) Canada needs to “reconsider the continuing legal privileging of marriage and other conjugal relationships.”

3) Once gay marriage is legalized, Canada will be able to “consider whether the legal privileges and burdens now assigned to marriage and other conjugal relationships can be justified.”
4) Canada needs to question “whether conjugality is an appropriate marker for determining legal rights and obligations.”

[Answers: The English translation of #1,# 2, and #4 is: “Canada should abolish marriage.” The translation of #3 is: “Once we legalize gay marriage, we can move on to the task of abolishing marriage itself.”]

This argument was very publicly made to Canadians in 2001, when the Law Commission of Canada published its report, “Beyond Conjugality.” But nobody got it. Everyone noticed that a government commission had backed same-sex marriage. But few recognized, grasped, or could bring themselves to take seriously, the central thrust of Beyond Conjugality: that after the legalization of same-sex marriage, Canadian marriage itself ought to be abolished. (For more on this, see my article “Beyond Gay Marriage”)

Martha Bailey, Queens University law professor and chief author of the now infamous report advocating the decriminalization of polygamy, played an important organizing role in the Beyond Conjugality project (translation: the “Abolish Marriage” project). In 2004, Bailey published an article, “Regulation of Cohabitation and Marriage in Canada,” arguing that, after the legalization of same-sex marriage, Canadians would be able to turn their attention to the more urgent business of abolishing marriage itself. (That article is the source of items #2, #3, and #4 above.) So it is hardly surprising that Bailey has now called for the decriminalization of polygamy. What’s that you say? How does legalizing polygamous marriage advance the cause of abolishing marriage? Canadians, I’m going to have to spell it out for you in a way that Martha Bailey and her friends on the Law Commission of Canada will not.

The Plan
It’s like this. The way to abolish marriage, without seeming to abolish it, is to redefine the institution out of existence. If everything can be marriage, pretty soon nothing will be marriage. Legalize gay marriage, followed by multi-partner marriage, and pretty soon the whole idea of marriage will be meaningless. At that point, Canada can move to what Bailey and her friends really want: an infinitely flexible relationship system that validates any conceivable family arrangement, regardless of the number or gender of partners.

Link to complete article, and more:
http://www.nationalreview.com/kurtz/kur ... 030805.asp

[North Shore]

Hang on a sec, Jake. What, exactly, is wrong with:

an infinitely flexible relationship system that validates any conceivable family arrangement, regardless of the number or gender of partners.

? If I, or anyone else, enter into a conjugal arrangement between consenting adults - what business of the state's is it if the participants therein are of the same gender, or if there are more than two of us? As long as I pay my taxes, and act in a moral manner, then I don't see a problem. (Although I'm standing by to listen to your objections thereto )

edited to add: Personally, though, I'm quite happy with one wife, and she with me

[BoostedNihilist]

I really have a hard time with this one.

It's just so obvious what is happening here...

The whole mormon split thing speaks volumes, but the FLDS is so obviously out there that they could not even convince their own believers to take part in this whacked out 'cattle' breeding scheme..

Just the fact that they are linked to those perverse heathens should be enough to go in there and bust some johnsons. I seriously doubt that this kind pyramid scheme of child abuse was intended when the religious freedom protection was written into the charter. A Turban, a ceremonial knife.. I can buy that.. this.... no.

Edit: are those kissing smilies both dudes?

[North Shore]

Boosted, don't get me wrong ... I agree whole-heartedly about the child abuse, and for that reason alone, there should be some action taken about Bountiful.

Ahhh, negative. In my case, the smilies are hetero...http://www.avcanada.ca/forums2/viewtopi ... 49&t=13481

[Sheila]

"We are approaching the 40th year anniversary of the legalization of both contraception and abortion in Canada in 2009. We can no longer fool ourselves into thinking that contraception has not played an enormous role in the break down of the family unit these past forty years. It's not a coincidence that that once contraception was legalized with abortion in May 1969 the precipitous fall of the family followed thereafter" It's time to reflect on this and see our culture is wrong.

[Guido]

"We are approaching the 40th year anniversary of the legalization of both contraception and abortion in Canada in 2009. We can no longer fool ourselves into thinking that contraception has not played an enormous role in the break down of the family unit these past forty years. It's not a coincidence that that once contraception was legalized with abortion in May 1969 the precipitous fall of the family followed thereafter" It's time to reflect on this and see our culture is wrong.

Geez, Sheila, I really want some of whatever drugs you're on. I'm curious how you could link abortion and contraception to child molestation. Please enlighten us.
(There are some seriously creative characters here on AvCanada... I think, that's why I like this place so much.)

With regards to the topic... if there's proof of children being abused, it's not a complicated matter for the police to become involved...
As for the subject of polygamy, as has been said, what happens between consenting adults is none of anyone else's business. Though in this case, one has to wonder if a brainwashed adult can legally give consent...

[Widow]

B.C. should prosecute polygamists, says former sect member
Province studying constitutionality of case

Charles Lewis, National Post
Published: Wednesday, April 09, 2008


The Attorney-General of British Columbia should stop wasting time and start prosecuting individuals in the fundamentalist Mormon community of Bountiful, a former member of the polygamous sect said Tuesday.

Debbie Palmer, who was married off at the age of 15 to a 55-year-old man, said she does not understand why the province keeps studying the constitutionality of the federal law that forbids polygamy rather than testing it by enforcement.

Vancouver lawyer Leonard Doust issued a report this week that said the best way to proceed was to refer section 293 of the Criminal Code to the courts to test its constitutionality, rather than prosecute individuals first.

Mr. Doust had been asked by B.C. Attorney-General Wally Oppal to recommend a course of action. However, last August, Vancouver lawyer Richard Peck, also commissioned by Mr. Oppal, came to the same conclusion.

When Mr. Oppal was asked by The Vancouver Sun for his reaction to Mr. Doust's report, he said, "It's no secret I favoured a more aggressive approach to this."

Ms. Palmer said if that is the case she does not understand why Mr. Oppal just does not take action.

"All the anti-polygamists were feeling Wally Oppal was our last hope. But I don't think he is any more determined to sort out the issue than any other attorney-general has been. He is definitely stalling," said Ms. Palmer, who now lives in Prince Albert, Sask. "Having been a child on the inside I know the uncertainty has a really bad effect on everybody: on the people concerned about the issue and the women and children inside the community who don't know what's going to happen to them."

Mr. Oppal could not be reached for comment but is reported to have said he would make a decision "within the next week or so."

Ms. Palmer was taken to Bountiful in 1957 when she was two years old by her father. By 15 she was married to a 55-year-old man as his fifth wife.

After he died in 1974 she "was reassigned to another man who had five wives and then went through some pretty horrifying abuses with that man who was incredibly abusive to his wives and children. In 1979 I was given a release and assigned to a third man."

She said that in 1988 she decided that she had to get out to keep her eight children safe.

Ms. Palmer said she got into advocacy work because she realized that she had left behind 47 brothers and sisters, along with many nieces, nephews and stepchildren, who had no voice.

Bountiful is estimated to have 1,500 residents who practise polygamy.

The mainstream Mormon church, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, condemns polygamy.

Don Stuart, a professor of law at Queen's University, said he was puzzled by what was going on in British Columbia.

"I'm not quite sure why it's necessary to refer a normal law enforcement discretion to a committee," Prof. Stuart said.

"Prosecutors are not supposed to proceed if there's no reasonable prospect of success. If there's an evidentiary problem of getting the proper complainant you can understand why they're not proceeding," said Prof. Stuart. "But assuming there's a possibility of getting the evidence I would have thought that referring the matter to a court for a constitutional reference seems rather odd. Especially if the likelihood here is that people are being hurt."

One concern is that the law would fail a challenge because it could be seen as violating freedom of religion.

Nicholas Bala, who is also a law professor at Queen's University, and who has written extensively about polygamy, said the religious freedom argument has failed in the United States, India and Europe.

He said a court in Canada would look at whether the harm that was being done to women and children would outweigh any perceived infringement on religious practice.

"The reality of polygamy in fundamentalist Mormon communities is there are significant concerns about exploitation of younger women and girls being forced into those relations and it's very hard for them to leave."

He said there could be reluctance to prosecute because of the difficulty of getting anyone to testify. Women may be afraid to come forward out of fear they will be prosecuted, too. And in some cases they may simply not want to testify against the father of their children or they may even be afraid of retribution in the community.

"In my view something should be done quickly," he said. "We have many laws that people are saying are unconstitutional and the typical practice is to lay the charges and let the courts decide and have the constitutionality resolved in the context of the specific case."

http://www.nationalpost.com/most_popula ... ?id=431004

[lucky37]

Section 293 of the Criminal Code prohibits "any form of polygamy [or] entering into a conjugal union with more than one person at the same time." The maximum penalty is five years in prison.

One concern is that the law would fail a challenge because it could be seen as violating freedom of religion.

I call bulls**t on that one. So technically, I could create a religion that had me sacrifice children to the "God of Aircraft" and I couldn't be charged with murder because it would infringe on my religion? Well, I'd be called a nutbag, but say I had a community of 1500 people who also did the same thing, could we all hide behind our religion? Is religion above the law again, like it used to be in the dark ages? Am I way off in that comparison? Where do we draw the line? Whenever religion infringes on human rights (young women forced into marriage and denied education) I cannot see how it can be used as an excuse. Religion..... (shakes head)

[AntiNakedMan]

Section 293 of the Criminal Code prohibits "any form of polygamy [or] entering into a conjugal union with more than one person at the same time." The maximum penalty is five years in prison.

One concern is that the law would fail a challenge because it could be seen as violating freedom of religion.

I call bulls**t on that one. So technically, I could create a religion that had me sacrifice children to the "God of Aircraft" and I couldn't be charged with murder because it would infringe on my religion? Well, I'd be called a nutbag, but say I had a community of 1500 people who also did the same thing, could we all hide behind our religion? Is religion above the law again, like it used to be in the dark ages? Am I way off in that comparison? Where do we draw the line? Whenever religion infringes on human rights (young women forced into marriage and denied education) I cannot see how it can be used as an excuse. Religion..... (shakes head)

You're a little off there. Your religion of sacrifice is quite a different bag of cats; that would involve harming someone else. Currently, the laws on Polygamy prevent multiple marriage between consenting parties. To me, it is excessive and does go further than necessary, not just on the ground of religion but on the fact that private citizens should be allowed to have as many relationships as they want so long as they are consentual.

The problem that we see in these polygamist communes is child abuse, and that should be dealt with by using the provisions of the criminal code that deal with that.

[grimey]

I call bulls**t on that one. So technically, I could create a religion that had me sacrifice children to the "God of Aircraft" and I couldn't be charged with murder because it would infringe on my religion?

Nah, you just sacrifice goats instead.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,295857,00.html

You're a little off there. Your religion of sacrifice is quite a different bag of cats; that would involve harming someone else. Currently, the laws on Polygamy prevent multiple marriage between consenting parties. To me, it is excessive and does go further than necessary, not just on the ground of religion but on the fact that private citizens should be allowed to have as many relationships as they want so long as they are consentual.

The problem with polygamy in small communities like this is that it often leads to rampant inbreeding/incest, which leads to birth defects, mental retardation, and higher susceptibility to some illnesses. Do a search on "fumarase deficiency", there's a reason why cases are essentially isolated to members of the FLDS.

[grimey]

"We are approaching the 40th year anniversary of the legalization of both contraception and abortion in Canada in 2009. We can no longer fool ourselves into thinking that contraception has not played an enormous role in the break down of the family unit these past forty years. It's not a coincidence that that once contraception was legalized with abortion in May 1969 the precipitous fall of the family followed thereafter" It's time to reflect on this and see our culture is wrong.

Haz'll give you some lovin, Chantal.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

Haz'll give you some lovin, Chantal.

Be careful Chantal, you want to think very seriously about not using contraception with Haz.......do you want a little Haz to raise?

[lucky37]

You're a little off there. Your religion of sacrifice is quite a different bag of cats; that would involve harming someone else..... The problem that we see in these polygamist communes is child abuse.

Yes, there is child abuse that is doing harm to children. I know that sacrificing children is a little extreme, but my point was that they cannot use the excuse of religious infringement as a shield against the law.