Advice for a newbie (training & work in BC)

[comet555]

Hi everyone,

I've done lots of reading on here but still feel the need to ask a few questions. First of all, I'm posting to find out answers for my husband. I'm the researcher and internet person so I always end up doing the legwork! I apologize in advance for all the questions but it's really important that we get some more information.

Anyway, right now we're in Australia and we'll be moving back to Canada around March to June 2010 (so about 2 years from now). When we return my husband will be going to one of the helicopter training schools in BC, probably in Abbottsford. We want to live in BC and he wants to work in the mountains, so taking the advice of everyone on here he'll be training in the mountains.

My questions:
1. Training..... it appears the best places to train are in or around Abbottsford. Are there any other places? I'm just asking because we have family in Sparwood and it would be nice to be close by. But as far as I can tell there's not much going on helicopter wise over there. Any advice on training? We expect it'll cost about $50,000 which sucks but is no problem because we have lots of money from the house to put in into it. So we want him to get the best training he can to help him find work easier.

2. Where to live? We would like to live somewhat nearby where he will be working (or likely to fly out of). I know he'll likely be spending a lot of time working away from home so it would be nice to live within a couple of hours of his home base. So, where are some places that wouldn't be too far away for a helicopter pilot? When we go back our kids will be aged 6 and 3.5 years old so we'll need to be in a decent town and not in the midle of nowhere. Also, I'm a high school math teacher so I'll need to be able to find work somewhere because we're not expecting my husband to make much that first year.

3. Working life, what can we expect for the first year? Are there specific seasons where he would be very busy, or really slow? Is it mostly contract work or season work at first? How long would he be away from home? I'm just wondering if it's a few weeks at a time, or is it months? Does it get any better as you gain more experience and flying time?

Also, what kind of work should he expect in his first year? We're both aware he's not just going to go from training into a full time flying position.

4. Salary.... what could we expect the first year? We're already expecting a huge salary drop (he's currently a mining engineer) so we're prepared for that. So if anyone has a rough guide for salary it would really help out a lot.

Well.... I think I'm done all my questions for now. I would really appreciate any help I could get.

[All Sides]

Hello Comet555,
Hopefully I can answer some of you questions. First off you are assuming that your husband will find a job in the first place. If you (he) do your research carefully you will find that there were 321 commercial pilots licenses issued in 2007 in Canada, and how many were hired? Of those that were hired, I'll personally guarantee you that precious few are actually out there flying as a full time commercial pilot. Although there is a shortage of helicopter pilots in Canada the operative word is "experienced".

I commend you on supporting your husband in achieving his dreams, the fact that you are a teacher could serve your family well. There is a reason that a lot of pilots are married to teachers, nurses, police officers etc., because these professions are required in remote locations of Canada. It is increasing difficult for operators to find pilots who will live in remote areas of Canada, and that could be your opportunity to break into the industry.

He will not be a contract pilot with no operational experience, and usually the majority of the flying takes place between May-Sept..As far as training goes I think your on the right track training in the lower mainland, although mountain flying does not generally factor into the basic commercial license. (although some might argue that point) Personally I think if you pursue a larger company and are prepared to live in a remote location as a base pilot and a teacher your chances improved.

Sorry I didn't sugar coat your questions, and there are exceptions to finding work in the industry. My advise is research this very carefully and go into with your eyes wide open. Also your husband should start to be a little more proactive, he'll need to be if he wants to make it in the industry.

[sky's the limit]

Hi Comet,

I think Allsides has given you a good response, and an honest one.

This is NOT an easy industry to break into, regardless of how good and busy things are at the present time. And if you're talking about BC specificly, it's that much harder as the demands of even the easy flying here are often well above the skill set of the average <500hr pilot.

As Allsides mentioned, the fact you have a career is good, but your husband should also consider working outside the industry in the "off-season" unless he can get on at one of the larger companies which can keep him employed over the winter. Even if that happens, the pay would be very low until he's actually flying, then salaries improve somewhat.

I do think pursuing the best training is great idea, and as training has really become a large industry in and of itself, you need to be very careful which school you choose. There are some fantastic Instructors out there, so researching what schools they work at is paramount. You want a HIGH TIME industry experienced person, and you want a training environment that is/can be challenging. The Fraser Valley has a good number of schools of all shapes and sizes, using all different types of machinery.

As for machinery, I trained initially on the Bell 47 and it's a wonderful platform to learn on, very indicative of how helicopters sure as the Bell 206 fly. It's also a tough, stable, and enjoyable machine to fly, which mean pilot confidence can be built quickly which is very important. I know many schools use the R22, but I wouldn't go out of my way to train in one. Just my personal opinion of course.

As for what to expect in that first year or two, well, it's hard to say but there are a few things you can bank on. Ground time, and lots of it. This industry really likes to see what people are made of before letting them take very expensive machinery, and very fragile customer's into the field. Ground work is usually very low paying, but it's almost a requirement. You simply have to suck it up and work your ass off, and target companies who can GET YOU FLYING. Read, probably Alberta or somewhere else flat. Being a Low-timer in BC is much longer process usually, and for good reason. The priority should be to get hours any way possible once the license is obtained, and then if you two want to live back in BC full time, you start looking at companies once you have something to offer them.

As an example, I was flying 20mins ago, a routine job here on the Coast, and I let three groups of passengers off while balancing (toed-in) on a snow covered log about 3ft in diameter, sitting in a very steep cut block on a mountain. This is totally normal, everyday flying here, but it is NOT an environment where new pilots can build time quickly. The weather out here is another challenge, and learning to fly the machines is the priority at low hours, so the Flatlands are your best bet to build some experience.

Salary in the first year will be low if he gets a job, non-existent if he doesn't. If it's ground work, expect $12-15/hr.... Yes, really. Once he does get flying, there'll probably be a Base Wage of $2000(ish)/month + flight hours($30-50/hr) but the flight time will come slowly at first. If all goes very well, in a couple years he should be around $50,000+, and the average 1000hr pilot seems to make somewhere around $60K/yr. Once you gain more experience and skills(mountain work, long lining, etc) then it goes up quite nicely.

I am a Contract Pilot, but it's taken a long time to become one. Again, as Allsides said, that route is once you have experience in many areas. I fly 5 different types of machine, and I work full time in the mountains, with LOTS of long line time. These are things you can market to companies, even in the down times, so if Contract work is something he's interested in, a deliberate effort should be made to build skills, not just money. That can often mean moving, switching companies, and being flexible.

I hope that helps somewhat, and if there's anything we've missed please ask again...!

Good luck, and we'll help you try to understand this industry as best we can.

stl

[standaside]

I think there is some misconception about training on the R22. Reality is, it is a cost effective machine to train on and commonly 100 hour pilots start out on its sister machine the R44. The R22 is loaded with power so it even makes transitioning into a B206 easy seeing as how it is closer matched in power than the pre-historic B47 is to the 206. Training in the mountains does no good if the machine you're training on can't get to them. There are some really good schools in BC utilizing the R22 helping make it the most commonly used heli for flight training.

[comet555]

Thanks so much for your answers you guys. I really appreciate it. And I definitely didn't want it sugar coated as I'd rather hear the truth and know what we're getting into.

I did forget to mention that I know all about the ground time required and that it would take a while to get any sort of actual flying job. I've read lots of comments on here that indicated this would happen. So we are prepared for that and we will walk in assuming he will have zero income for the first year or two. He would be prepared to do lots of ground time and learn as much as he could about everything that he could. He's actually very good at getting his foot in the door and working hard. It's just right now he's working full time and this is all a few years away so he's trying not to think about it too much at the moment (although he's definitely thought about doing this for years!).

I'm glad to hear about the seasons. It works well with teaching because the school year typically runs from Setpember to June. So that's good. We would have one child in school and the other almost in school. So it would be handy if he could stay at home and watch him for that first year until he goes into school full time. The fact that I'm a teacher does help, I teach high school math so I would imagine I could probably find work suppying.

I also wonder if we could base ourselves somewhere near the mines in BC, then maybe he could pick up some contracts doing engineering work at the mine. Just an idea, who knows whether that would work or not. Or, the alternative we could live in Ontario or Alberta near (or with) our family to save money and then he can go away as required for work. I have family in Ontario (by Kingston) so we could always go there for a while if it would help him build up time and then move west later on.

Hard to say at this point, I just like figuring out the options. Before we moved to Australia we lived in Fort McMurray for about 5 years so we've been in remote places, although Fort McMurray was a bigger town than many of them would be in BC.

[comet555]

I should also add that my husband does love working on machines. I know it's no comparison but he would typically do a lot of the regular maintance and repairs on our vehicles. I'm not sure why he enjoys it but he does! His family is full of tradespeople, from mechanics to carpenters & millwright so he is quite used to working with his hands.

Just thought I'd mention it because he would be happy to learn how to do all that stuff with helicopters. I'm just now sure if it's helpful for pilot to also do that sort of thing and what kind of qualifications it would require.

[Ogee]

I think there is some misconception about training on the R22. Reality is, it is a cost effective machine to train on and commonly 100 hour pilots start out on its sister machine the R44. The R22 is loaded with power so it even makes transitioning into a B206 easy seeing as how it is closer matched in power than the pre-historic B47 is to the 206. Training in the mountains does no good if the machine you're training on can't get to them. There are some really good schools in BC utilizing the R22 helping make it the most commonly used heli for flight training.

I'm surprised you could get near enough to the keyboard to type that, what with your nose growing longer and longer at every letter, Pinocchio.

Running an R22 school, are we? You'd have to be "loaded" to claim the R22 is "loaded with power". It's a good machine for midgets who want to buy one and fly it privately.

Chinook, BC Helicopters in Abbotsford, and Kootenay Valley Helicopters in Creston. They're you're very boys for commercial.

Personally I'd recommend getting your fixed wing first. You'll find it a little easier getting initial work. Then when you have say 750 hours, you may want to look at helicopter. The course shortens to only 50 hours for the conversion, but then you are a helicopter pilot with only 50 hours, so it can work against you.

Never, ever, take a ground job. I don't want to get into it here, but the greed and exploitation inherent in running a business that way tells me those are businesses you want to avoid.

[The Mole]

Standaside. lay off the crack buddy. Your r22 has a pre-historic 4 cylinder engine in it. The same vintage as the Bell 47 6 cylinder of the same manufacture. Have you seen the robinson safety video. Do you really think you could recognize a engine failure in 1.2 sec. Guess you better or your dead. A R22 was never built for training. It only used cause its cheap. bla bla it makes for easy transition bla bla. It's about your training and interest to learn beyond what the schools teach.

Selected the best instructor you can find. Chinook has very experienced people. If believe K.O. has something like 20,000hr and 45 years of helicopter experience. OH standaside go ask him about real world emergency's he's lived through most of them.

Flying helicopter is a life style. You can either see the good side or the bad.


Don't get a helicopter license unless you really really really really and i mean deep down want this. If you don't have passion for it your waseting your money and others time.

[sky's the limit]

Don't get a helicopter license unless you really really really really and i mean deep down want this. If you don't have passion for it your waseting your money and others time.

Bingo...

That part should be paid the most attention.


stl

[comet555]

Thanks for the great advice everyone. And yes, he definitely really, really wants to do this!

One more quick question if you don't mind. I don't really know how the work season goes, but do the pilots get a little work year round with a very busy season in the summer? Or is the work non existent until the busy season? I'm just curious because I'm wondering if we can live in Ontario and my husband go to BC to work for the busy season. I'm a teacher so in theory we could all go to BC for the summer.

This couldn't really happen though unless the only work time was during the summer. No big problem either way though. If the work is year round then we'll just move to BC.

[oldncold]

one other thing is this , helicopters make money in terrain where only moutain goats , dall sheep (offshore its whales ) are found.

next / this is probably a good time to train (12-24 months ) as the resource
sector which is the bread and butter of helicopter operators is slowing down. so he will be training in the down time of the cycle. and if the timing like all things in life is right / hit the start of the next up tick in the industry. which with more baby boomers retiring should be longer .

I would also recommend valley helicopters in hope bc. the maintenance those folks do on the 47 is top notch right darren!! it is close enough to the city with out the huge expense of metro vancouver .

stl can comment of course on that. he would get mountain exp and a feel for the workings of the industry with a reputable company the other one I know is Valemount helicopters in Valemount b.c not sure if they do training ab initio though . good manitenance too . and your chances of getting work in out of the way place (relatively speaking) are better.

[sky's the limit]

one other thing is this , helicopters make money in terrain where only moutain goats , dall sheep (offshore its whales ) are found.

next / this is probably a good time to train (12-24 months ) as the resource
sector which is the bread and butter of helicopter operators is slowing down. so he will be training in the down time of the cycle. and if the timing like all things in life is right / hit the start of the next up tick in the industry. which with more baby boomers retiring should be longer .

I would also recommend valley helicopters in hope bc. the maintenance those folks do on the 47 is top notch right darren!! it is close enough to the city with out the huge expense of metro vancouver .

stl can comment of course on that. he would get mountain exp and a feel for the workings of the industry with a reputable company the other one I know is Valemount helicopters in Valemount b.c not sure if they do training ab initio though . good manitenance too . and your chances of getting work in out of the way place (relatively speaking) are better.

The timing is right to train IF - and it is a VERY big if - this economic cycle is short lived, particularly in the mining sector. But, I don't think it will be short, and the mining sector depends heavily on the ability of the stock market to make the principals money - it's not actually about finding anything. I work mostly in mining exploration in the summers these days, but am hearing there will be almost nothing going on this year compared to the last few. Time will tell.

As for Valley, I would highly recommend training there, and flying with Craig Joiner if you can - he's top notch and must have 13,000 hrs or more by now. Can't go wrong there if they are still training. The Bell 47 is the added bonus in that equation as well.

In Valemount you have Yellowhead helicopters, wasn't aware they were doing any training there at all, much less ab initio, but Old may know something there I don't.

I would caution starting out flying right now, unless you have patience and can find meaningful work in something else until such time as low-timers are being taken on again. While there will always be "low-time" jobs, when times are tough even the high timers will do tours or mundane stuff to pay the mortgage...

stl

[Captain Slog]

Ogee and The Mole, clearly neither of you have any idea what you are talking about. The R22 is a tried and proven machine and if you had ever piloted one you would know it does indeed have (relatively) plenty of power and to try to make the case that 47 is a better machine on any level, well what can I say what can anyone say, miles apart maybe, not even from the same era, whatever.

Fixed wing to rotary is 60 hours not 50.

The Mole. Could I recognise an engine failure in 1.2 seconds? Yes, it’s all part of the training process.

[comet555]

We've just been revisiting our plans when we come back to Canada and there a couple of questions I want to ask.

First, is BC the best place to train or are there some good schools in Ontario? When we come back we will probably be staying near my family which is an hour from Ottawa. My husband will go wherever he needs to for the training, but if there happened to be a good school in Ottawa that would be fantastic. However as far as I can tell the answer is no, so it looks like BC is the best place.

Second, if he were to do his training in BC would Ontario be a good place to look for work afterwards? I believe someone mentioned that looking for work in flat places would be best so I'm thinking it might be a good strategy. This would work out well because we're now thinking that we might like to settle near my family by Ottawa, at least for the first couple of years. I would imagine there's probably not a lot of work in Ottawa or Kingston so he'd probably have to be away for long periods at a time.

Lastly..... we know finding work is very difficult, if not impossible. Would it make more sense to get a fixed wing commercial licence first and gain some hours that way, then do the conversion later on? This question is mostly from me.... I know my husband would love to learn to fly planes but I think helicopters is what he wants most.

Forgive me for asking all sorts of questions. We're still trying to figure out the best way to go about things. At the moment we are staying here until about December 2010, so he would probably start training in Jan/Feb of 2011. So still a ways off yet. We'll be staying an extra year in Australia because he'll save all the money he needs for training that way.

[Ground Thumper]

I think there are no helicopter schools in Ottawa - used to be but not anymore. There may be one in Gatineau, Quebec - an offshoot of a Montreal based training company.

Good Luck,

[r22captain]

First, is BC the best place to train or are there some good schools in Ontario? When we come back we will probably be staying near my family which is an hour from Ottawa. My husband will go wherever he needs to for the training, but if there happened to be a good school in Ottawa that would be fantastic. However as far as I can tell the answer is no, so it looks like BC is the best place.

Canadian Helicopters runs a school in Toronto/Buttonville.
National is in Brampton
Great Lakes at the Waterloo airpot

Second, if he were to do his training in BC would Ontario be a good place to look for work afterwards? I believe someone mentioned that looking for work in flat places would be best so I'm thinking it might be a good strategy. This would work out well because we're now thinking that we might like to settle near my family by Ottawa, at least for the first couple of years. I would imagine there's probably not a lot of work in Ottawa or Kingston so he'd probably have to be away for long periods at a time.

Helicopter Transport is based near Ottawa....but haven't heard of too many newbie getting their start their.
Western Canada is where it's at in my opinion for getting your foot in the door.

Lastly..... we know finding work is very difficult, if not impossible. Would it make more sense to get a fixed wing commercial licence first and gain some hours that way, then do the conversion later on? This question is mostly from me.... I know my husband would love to learn to fly planes but I think helicopters is what he wants most.

I have atpl in both. Wouldn;t say it's worth getting a FW cpl as it doesn;t help much except for some IFR heli jobs I've gotten a waiver for thanks to my FW time...but I'd say commit to one or the other.

Forgive me for asking all sorts of questions. We're still trying to figure out the best way to go about things. At the moment we are staying here until about December 2010, so he would probably start training in Jan/Feb of 2011. So still a ways off yet. We'll be staying an extra year in Australia because he'll save all the money he needs for training that way.

The industry here is in and out of the dumps weekly. a few fires are helping. Lots of guys laid off. Some sill doing 100+ a month...I'm doing 30-50.....it all depends....who knows what a year will bring. work visa's for forgein pilots....especially low timers are impossible. sorry....just giving you some insight as to how it rolls here!

[comet555]

Thanks guys...

First of we don't need a work visa. We're Canadian citizens, born and raised in Canada. We're just in Australia for another 18 months before we head back home. I'm not too worried about what the work situation is like (at the moment) because it'll be about 2 years until he starts looking for work after training.

So in short, this is what I need to know I guess.
1. The best place to train would be in BC.
2. The best place to look for work as a low timer would be in BC (which is still very, very hard to come by).
3. No point in doing fixed wing first if he really wants to fly helicopters.

I have a quick question about Canadian helicopters, is it a good school? How would it compare to those in BC. It's only 3.5 hours from where we'd like to live so it would be convenient, particularly if they like prefer to hire their own people.

Lastly... if he should be lucky/good enough to find someone to take him on as a low timer how long do you think it would take to get up to about 1000 hours (or a level where he could find employment more easily)? I'm just wondering if it would be feasible for the family to stay in Ontario and for him to travel and stay wherever the work is. Or would that mean way too much time away from home? I'm guessing that's just what comes with the job though.

[sky's the limit]

Hi Comet,

I've just come out of camp and have read your latest Q's. I'm just on my way home at the moment, but will endeavour to give you my two cents here shortly.

stl

[comet555]

Thanks, I appreciate that

[sky's the limit]

Thanks guys...

So in short, this is what I need to know I guess.
1. The best place to train would be in BC.
2. The best place to look for work as a low timer would be in BC (which is still very, very hard to come by).
3. No point in doing fixed wing first if he really wants to fly helicopters.

I have a quick question about Canadian helicopters, is it a good school? How would it compare to those in BC. It's only 3.5 hours from where we'd like to live so it would be convenient, particularly if they like prefer to hire their own people.

Lastly... if he should be lucky/good enough to find someone to take him on as a low timer how long do you think it would take to get up to about 1000 hours (or a level where he could find employment more easily)? I'm just wondering if it would be feasible for the family to stay in Ontario and for him to travel and stay wherever the work is.

Hi there,


Sorry for the tardy response, I'm wiped after this last tour and arrived home to 32C after the better part of a month on Long John's.... Ouch!

I'll try to address your points in order, and briefly. (Only my opinion of course)

1) If he has any intention of flying in the mountains at any point, getting exposure to it early is far better than not at all. I'm contracting to a few companies this year, two which are here in BC, one is not. The difference in pilot abilities is staggering. It's not that these pilots could not fly better, it's that they have never learned to treat flying as a three dimensional exercise, and it shows in a big way throughout the range of pilots, from low-time to high-time. Building skills starts very early, and there are many more required in the rocks than out.

Additionally, many of the really great training pilots in Canada are located out West, in the hills, where they can pass on their knowledge in a more complex environment leading to a deeper learning experience.

We tend to learn best what we learn first, so putting good information in first is very important imho. That said, there are a great many pilots who train, fly, and spend entire careers in the flats and do a fine job of it.

2) BC is about the worst place to look for low-time work. It's very difficult to get started in the mountains - particularly the Coast - but it can be done. Getting work in flatland applications is by nature much easier, and if the mountains is the goal, a person can transition into them after a short time once they can fly the machine better. There are a few BC companies that will bring on low-timers, but as the operational environment is so much more involved, it tends to take a bit more time to get the hours rolling in. There are always exceptions though, and if we explode with fires this month as it looks like we may, then there could be great opportunity for low-timers unlike any since 2003 when Kelowna burnt.

3) I came from FW, and many, many hours of bush work mainly consisting of off-strip applications - no question it helped a tonne in my rotary career. That said, until a person hones their skills and expands their knowledge base to a sizable level - which takes years - a FW start will have little impact, particularly one that consists of pavement to pavement flying. The effort required to get going in FW will be similar to getting started in rotary, so to do it prior then switch is a very long road. If he wants to fly helicopters, fly them from the get go.


Canadian has an OK school out East, and they do a reasonable job of teaching, but the big bonus there is, they only hire low-timers who've gone through their schools.... It's most certainly not the best place to learn, but if you can have a shot at a job afterward, then it may be well worth it.

Lastly, it is impossible to tell how long it would take to get 1000hrs. It may never happen, there are plenty of people who are wandering around with Commercial Helicopter Licenses who NEVER got going, others could get there in two or three years. It all depends on timing, who hires you, you work ethic, attitude, and skill levels. With the economy the way it is this year, it could be a very long road. Great Slave Helicopters for example cut everyone with less than 1000hrs off their list this year, and guys who flew 400hrs last year are back on the ground... so again, it is impossible to say.

My only other comment is this:

If you really want to do this, you need plan on the worst case scenario - NOT the best case. Getting the license is easy, getting a job, then building knowledge and experience is most definitely not. Even if you do get those 1000hrs, finding good employers who pay fairly and fly good machinery is difficult. Once there, you are away - a lot. There is risk, and there are people hurt and killed every year. It is a very serious exploit and money aside, it is one that needs to be treated as such.

Hope that helps a bit.

stl

[r22captain]

Canadian has an OK school out East, and they do a reasonable job of teaching, but the big bonus there is, they only hire low-timers who've gone through their schools.... It's most certainly not the best place to learn, but if you can have a shot at a job afterward, then it may be well worth it.

ouch...I think I turned out ok :P
ya the school has gone through some instructors since I was there. Not what it once was. But the company training you get if you get hired on is A1. Wish it was still in Penticton though damn it.

[sky's the limit]

ouch...I think I turned out ok :P

Haha,

No personal offense intended - you seem like a reasonable bloke.... But easy on the Cool-Aid! LOL "A-1???" Not likely, but decent enough. There are some truly "A-1" outfits out there that make CHL wither in comparison, but that's not to say working for CHL is entirely bad. Know quite a few good people there as a matter of fact...

stl

[comet555]

Thanks again for the excellent advice. You guys have been so helpful and most of all honest, which I really appreciate.

For now, I've given him all the information he can. He most definitely does not have a rosey outlook on the whole thing! He still really wants to fly but I've made it very clear that he needs to consider everything (including our family life) before deciding what he wants to do. Luckily he's got lots of time to figure things out.

Right now it's hard to say what will happen. I think we've got all the information we need so it's a wait and see game now. I do know that if he does go ahead he will definitely do the training in BC. We understand the logic and importance of training there and the schools seem excellent, so that would be where he would go if all this happens.

Anyway.... not sure what else to say at the moment. I'll try and check in again in another year or so closer to when we're going back to Canada. Hopefully we'll know what's happening by then!

Thanks