I’m not trying to start a debate on paying for jobs or whatever other topics we discuss. What I’m fed up with is the “Paying your Dues!”
Can anyone shed some light on the topic? Why is this attitude around in the industry? I’m not trying to destroy the foundations of aviation in Canada. I actually think we have a great system that allows pilots to progressively step onto bigger machines. Over here, some guys have never experienced GA flying besides the 200 hours of circuits they did before stepping into an A320.
I personally find this attitude as detrimental as the paying for job attitude. We often get blinded beyond reason by such propaganda that we fail to see the real essence of the industry’s deepest problems. No Cat, not TC…!
Now tell me, what does “Paying your Dues” mean?
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Last edited by Yoyoma on Fri Oct 29, 2004 5:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett
I'm still in the starting blocks as far as my career is concerned. The Thing I can't stand (and am fighting) is this idea that you HAVE to go to northern Canada to start your career. Not just pilots but mechanics too. every one I talk to says "go north for a while and get some real experience, then come back south." WTF! Is there no 'real experience' down here? The Canadian aviation community is probably the only one on the planet that has this attitude. Do the americans have to go and do service in Mississippi before they are allowed to fly in Hawaii?
Big_Oaf wrote:The Thing I can't stand (and am fighting) is this idea that you HAVE to go to northern Canada to start your career. Not just pilots but mechanics too. every one I talk to says "go north for a while and get some real experience, then come back south." WTF! Is there no 'real experience' down here? ?
No, it's just that all the Northerners head down south for work once they have experience.
So the only place that will hire you are the bases in boonies...
Big Oaf.. If they have enough money, much like in Canada, they can forego "Mississippi" and go directly to Hawaii and buy a 402 PPC. Its not really that diffrent in the US other then they dont have a "North of 60". They have many more opportunities to buy PPC`s and fly for free, and countless flight schools to instruct at. We all know how great it is for our industry when pilots with 200 hours go out and buy their way into a job *BLAH*.. The physical geography of the two countries makes them incomparable on this level in either case.
The experience we get from "doing our time" up north, is invaluable. There are many things I learned at my first job that I carry with me today. The teachings of an old bush rat, can be worth 10 days at FS.
I paid my dues up north, and after 10 years I continue to pay them.
If you havent noticed, some guys head for the bush and never come back. Its not as bad as you seem to think it is. Im north now, and will likely always stay here. Not because I couldnt cut it in the bigs, but because ive met some amazing people and amazing pilots up here and im in no hurry to leave.
Besides, there is the option of instructing "down south" and that works well for people within our industry too. We all have to pay dues regardless of what industry we are in. We live in a vast country that requires northern travel. Instead of whining about it, be THANKFUL that we have this country to fly in. If you doubt me, talk to any Kiwi pilot you know. They envy the system we have up here.
The good old days of 220 hours direct to the right seat of a Electra or DC9 are long gone, and even 33 years ago when my Uncle started with AC, he swept floors before he got his break.
The north is truly a great & beautiful place to hone your skills as a pilot, and if you have the right attitude, I guarantee you`ll meet some great people along the way. Besides, worst case senario, you do 18 months max on the ramp, and you get a right seat in a J31 or even a Ho. Is it really so bad? I can think of MANY industries that the "dues to be paid" are MUCH higher.
Fly safe all, Cheers
After a while, because it has always been done "this way" and perhaps for no other logical reason, a culture adopts it as a norm or a standard. See "female circumcision" in Africa, "foot binding" in East Asia, or even "university fraternity/sorority initiations or hazing" in the Western world for other examples.
I was discussing the finer points of this issue with a colleague over some Sake and yakisoba last night. The company we work for has the practice of transitioning turbo-prop FO's into their light corporate jet, before moving them into the airline type transport-category jet. My response was that they did this to give the pilots some jet experience before going on to the largest plane of the fleet. However, he pointed out that the largest plane was actually easier to operate in almost every single way than the two smaller aircraft-- especially the turbo-prop. He pointed out that flying the transition from the turboprop to a Boeing would be not very different than a transition from a Cessna 150 to a Boeing.
A few decades ago airlines like Air Canada and United would hire new young pilots with the bare minimums-- sometimes even without a multi-engine or instrument rating.
Interestingly, and I personally disagree with this point, my friend advocated an across the board reduction of airline pilot salaries. His point was that the reason pilots are willing to buy into the "paying your dues" mentality is with the illusion of the future 4 gold bars, 4 engine jet and $200,000 or $300,000 a year carrot being dangled in front of their eyes. The reality is that few pilots every reach that coveted position, however, it certainly creates the cutthroat competition that we experience at all levels of pilot job hunting and the acceptance of the "paying your dues" mentality. My friend insisted that if airline pilot salaries were drastically reduced, it would overall bring up the salaries and job qualities at all other levels of the aviation industry because pilots would be simply unwilling to sacrifice themselves at what is now considered "time building jobs" for a lesser future reward.
Interesting theory anyways.
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“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.”
-President Ronald Reagan
When you see a cocky pilot...that Jag-Off has not payed his/her dues.
All I hear is how bad their company is treating them or how hard it is to work 10-12 hours
Funny though when they come to an intreview...."oh I'll do anything to get a job...Please Please please sniff sniff
It's real simple folks!
1. Go to work when you are needed to.
2. Shut the firk up and do your job.
3. Don't complain and shut the firk up and do your job.
4. Talk about not complaining and shut the firk up and do your job.
5. Listen to your boss and jump when he/she needs you to. Then shut the firk up and do your job all the while shutting the firk up.
Vin Unleaded wrote:When you see a cocky pilot...that Jag-Off has not payed his/her dues.
All I hear is how bad their company is treating them or how hard it is to work 10-12 hours
Funny though when they come to an intreview...."oh I'll do anything to get a job...Please Please please sniff sniff
It's real simple folks!
1. Go to work when you are needed to.
2. Shut the firk up and do your job.
3. Don't complain and shut the firk up and do your job.
4. Talk about not complaining and shut the firk up and do your job.
5. Listen to your boss and jump when he/she needs you to. Then shut the firk up and do your job all the while shutting the firk up.
See what I mean?
VU, maybe your strategy can get me a EVP seat here?!
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In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett
Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not,knows no release from the little things; knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings.
- Amelia Earhart
The situation and mentality is simply put sad in Canada. I tought that slavery was a thing from the past. No one should be working for free or for unacceptable wages. One should have at least some selfrespect. Sweeping the ramp ,etc. is just an insult to the profession. I do read a lot of negative talk . In most countries Proffessional Pilots/Airline Pilots are still demanding a lot of respect. I know a lot of Canadians flying in Europe as well as other parts of the world who are earning a good living doing what they like best. None of them I know are willing to accept the low wages so many accept in Canada.
A good alternative is the Canadian Air Force. I however did not follow that route. Those who have connections with Europe should obtain JAA licences. Some airlines have their inhouse ab-initio training schools. South Africa also offers some oportunities. For Canadians with an Asiatic background a lot of oportunities are witing there as well. The idea is to obtain asap some multi turbine time possibly above 20t metric. Unless bushflying ,which is very plausable as well, is Your devotion.
If an operator can not pay his Pilot an acceptable wage he should not be in bussiness.
Young people starting an aviation career must ascertain to get some kind of degree.
I think we have this problem essentially because the Canadian licence is not worth the paper it is written on when we first get it. I mean, one question on the Commercial exam is......what is the rate of climb of a goose? Who the $#^&* cares?
Where else can you get an Airline Transport licence sitting in the right seat of a buck 50 flying around in a circuit when the weather is clear and a million, then attending a weekend seminar!?
So, we have to pay our dues, on the job training if you will. Having said that, how many times have you heard, well we need turbine time, or too bad you don't have any jet time, or rubber band time or nuclear fusion time.............it gets ridiculous!
Flying a Jet is alot easier than flying a piston engine. ( as far as powerplant is concerned ) Having gone through all that bullshit, I can say that if you train someone properly in the first place, they don't need to go through all that crap. This why BA and Luftansa take their guys staight out of university and train them themselves.
This is why I think we all have to pay our dues, so to speak.
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Last edited by Pindunder Jeep on Fri Oct 29, 2004 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
I believe I wasn't the first who posted here on this very forum what the obvious solution is...
What many of you aren't considering is that, in spite of the apparent truth in the phrase, "it's never happened, so it never will happen", there has been at least one major change in recent years that completely removes any relevance from what the past has brought, due to it's extremely usefull nature...
That major change being:
Your ability to communicate to, and with, so many among your shared profession, so readily and widely through the internet and forums such as this.
That access to instant communication -as widespread as anyone who wants to listen, is something your predecessors, who never organized well enough to spare your generation the pain, did not have.
So to those who laugh at the possibility, you may be the only serious obstacle left.
I do agree fully. As long as You can write an ATPL after a weekend seminar, the situation will not change. I am sure if those exams where to be put at a more acceptable level pilots graduating would demand more respect. After all an ATPL is only required for larger transport type aircraft. A Cpl./Senior Cpl. allows flying for operators with smaller equipment.Flying Jets is not difficult, nor is flying itself. The equipment itself costs between 30.million and 250million. That by itself demands a degree of responsability as well as the complexity of these flying machines. Managing a crew of 4 to 15 requires managerial skills other than flying. Procedures are very rigid within Airline flying.
ya gotta pay your dues 'cause that's the way the industry is! i'm not talking about pj's assertion that it's a dinosaur mentality, i just mean that it's the state of the industry.
there are more pilots than jobs. not everyone is looking for the same career path, as flyinthebug pointed out, but assuming that "going north" is not so desireable and a.c./westjet is the ultimate goal, the jobs that do become available at any level are going to be taken by the (usually) most experienced candidates. and then the job they open up will be taken by the most experienced bloke/gal available for it. and it all trickles down. so when your ink is drying you may want to go straight to skyservice or hmy... but unfortunately those of us who've "paid our dues" are going to be deemed better qualified for the job!
and as far as regarding "going north" as some sort of coming-of-age rite... it generally becomes something you have to do only because that's where the majority of entry level jobs are in this country.
believe me, i don't think it's too great a system either. i spent five years up north and i can't say i found to be a real stellar time. problem is, our industry is flailing a bit at the moment, so ya got to roll with the punches and play the game...
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Last edited by gelbisch on Fri Oct 29, 2004 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Courage is the price that life exacts for granting peace. The soul that knows it not,knows no release from the little things; knows not the livid loneliness of fear, nor mountain heights where bitter joy can hear the sound of wings.
- Amelia Earhart
I think paying your dues was a smart concept that got a wee bit out of hand. Im thinking it was a way to cut the teeth of some cocky young pilot who comes out of school (or his dads back yard airstrip or something) with his hair on fire and thinking they are invulnerable. So basically, you beat (excessively over work someone) them to take the attitude out of them, and along the way you impart unto them your wisdom. And so they begin their assention into planes, and progress as they prove they arent full of attitude, and have the proficiency and mentality to handle shit, especially as they progress into bigger and more expensive metal.
And then of course with all things, its been abused and become the aviation industry of today. Work the shit out of people, teach them nothing, and hell maybe make a buck off their ass while your at it. I honesty believe it probably started all well and good.
It was Kinda like basic in the military, with out all the swearing and beating, unless you work for regency! HA HA... never worked there, that was an absolute cheap shot... I dont even know.
I figure, if you life your life true to your beliefs, then your job and subsequent lifestyle are biproducts. If you have to "pay your dues", then fine. if you happen to end up where you want to be withuot "paying your dues", then even better. A wise old aviator once told me (someone we all know all too well on this forum), "chase lifestlye, not airplanes....the hours will come." To this day, i heed his advice, and i have had nothing but success in my professional and personal life.
Interesting point Holy Magenta. I see on this forum a lot of lower time pilots (and perhaps also some management types) telling higher time guys to "smarten up," to not be so negative, etc. Others simply can't understand why. Then there are those who ponder and wring their hands why employee loyalty is a rapidly disappearing quality. The way that I have heard it explained is that it's not unlike dealing with abused children. "Paying your Dues" is all about psychology, and logic suggests that the worse the treatment gets, the less gratude the industry should expect.
Holy Magenta wrote:I think paying your dues was a smart concept that got a wee bit out of hand. Im thinking it was a way to cut the teeth of some cocky young pilot who comes out of school (or his dads back yard airstrip or something) with his hair on fire and thinking they are invulnerable. So basically, you beat (excessively over work someone) them to take the attitude out of them, and along the way you impart unto them your wisdom. And so they begin their assention into planes, and progress as they prove they arent full of attitude, and have the proficiency and mentality to handle shit, especially as they progress into bigger and more expensive metal.
And then of course with all things, its been abused and become the aviation industry of today. Work the shit out of people, teach them nothing, and hell maybe make a buck off their ass while your at it. I honesty believe it probably started all well and good.
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“If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. If it stops moving, subsidize it.”
-President Ronald Reagan
In the business world, the rearview mirror is always clearer than the windshield...W. Buffett
