Here's a big ol' can a worms.......

mcrit · Post by **mcrit** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:18 pm

I suspect that this topic is going to open up some heated debate, so here goes.

We've got a couple of students at our flight school who recently arrived from another country. The country in question has had substantiated links to El Queda. These guys claim that they have already recieved military flight training in their own country, and are just converting to a Canadian multi/multi IFR so that they can get jobs here. The sticky point is, they fly like they've just finished a private license. They want to do all of the training in the multi a/c, won't even touch the sim.
This brings up two questions:
1.) Who has the responsibility to check up on how legitimate these guys are? Should the school be doing it, or has CSIS vetted these guys at the boarder?
2.) Assuming these guys are legitimate, who the HELL let them in to work as pilots? It's not like we have a shortage of qualified home grown talent.

So, there's the bone, who wants to take a bite at it?

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:25 pm

Just train them as well as you can and forget the bs.

LT · Post by LT » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:30 pm

Just train them as well as you can and forget the bs.

Ahramin it's tough when,

They want to do all of the training in the multi a/c, won't even touch the sim.

I believe, from the FTU's stand point it's upto the CFI and TC to determine if they're able and competent to begin on the multi aircraft...

Good luck.. You're farked either way..

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:40 pm

Did you have to fly a sim before starting your ppl?

How is a sim necessary or even important for a multi-ifr, other than to save money?

Wilbur · Post by **Wilbur** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:51 pm

Make an annonymous call to your local RCMP and share your thoughts with them. Maybe they have been properly scrutinized, and maybe they havn't. If they have, the cops and CSIS will realize it after a fairly quick check. If your concerns turn out to be valid, you may have saved the lives of hundreds of people.

If your gut is telling you something isn't right, go with your gut. Peoples instincts for "feeling" when something is fishy are usually pretty good.

Cat Driver · Post by **Cat Driver** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:53 pm

If a pilot wants to train on a multi and can afford to pay what in hell is it to the CFI or TC?

However if there is reason to believe they are suspicious about their security that is another matter best handled by those who look at that.

Cat

Murph · Post by **Murph** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:03 pm

it wouldn't even occur to me to check them out on the basis of where they are from, or what colour their skin is. Although if they don't have the skills to back up their claims i would check it out regardless of who they are. Demanding to only fly the multi doesn't seem that weird to me either, if they already have the training, they want a job on multi, so they're only going to pay for multi.

Pindunder Jeep · Post by **Pindunder Jeep** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:32 pm

Has 911 not taught us anything? There were guys in the states that had the same suspicions and did nothing. It is your duty to notify the authorities of any suspicious behavior.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:35 pm

I believe after 9/11, CSIS and the RCMP did a security check of students through most flight schools. Most of these schools were left with a contact number if they have any suspicious students. I would think it wise that if you're suspicious, you should contact the RCMP for a background check. It's better than you having suspicious thoughts in the back of your mind every time you're in the plane with them or they go out in a plane on their own. Also, if the worst case scenerio shows up, you can save your own bacon.

Tango01 · Post by **Tango01** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:29 pm

Pindunder Jeep wrote:Has 911 not taught us anything? There were guys in the states that had the same suspicions and did nothing. It is your duty to notify the authorities of any suspicious behavior.

That's the big difference between the Pre-911 and the Post-911. We are now scared or believe that any middle- eastern man that comes to a flight school has some crazy plan in mind, when in fact, people all over the world have trained in the US and Canada for decades, because of the quality of the training and the fact that it is much cheaper to do it here in North America. I bet if 9/11 had never occurred, this post would not exist. If these students got into Canada, and are " lawfully admitted into Canada for flight training" then your job is to train them accordingly to their needs.

T

bigred · Post by **bigred** » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:39 pm

I have had personal dealings with csis it is not fun they make life hell.
At the club were i worked three unfortunates (sp) who had the pleasure of dealing with the book keeper . because of the color of thier skin which is invalid here she called the horse men on them the poor saps had a hell of a lot of questions to answer to all in the name of a 300 xc for thier comm lic . so before you call anybody think whos life you may be ruining thanks guys.
RED

LANDGREEN · Post by **LANDGREEN** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 4:45 am

Make the call!!! SIMPLE....If it does'nt feel right...it's probably not....

chewsta · Post by **chewsta** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:11 am

mcrit wrote: 2.) Assuming these guys are legitimate, who the HELL let them in to work as pilots? It's not like we have a shortage of qualified home grown talent.

Do you not have copies of their passports/visas/current licenses?

THis40 · Post by **THis40** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:15 am

IF I (we) put up with random screening (almost everytime I go out to my aircraft) then these guys should be able to put up with a couple of questions from the rcmp. Call them.

. ._ · Post by **. ._** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 6:48 am

I say, give 'em a Jewish or female instructor, and see what they do.

-istp

Doc · Post by **Doc** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:18 am

How far up our arses are our heads? Really? If it looks like a skunk, smells like a skunk.....put the whole can of worms in the hands of people who will know what to do...CSIS, or the RCMP. Racial profiling? You bet your sweet butt...politically incorrect?....perhaps. I wouldn't touch them with a stick...if I felt uncomfortable with it. But then, that's just me.

Brew · Post by **Brew** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 10:57 am

That's the big difference between the Pre-911 and the Post-911. We are now scared or believe that any middle- eastern man that comes to a flight school has some crazy plan in mind, when in fact, people all over the world have trained in the US and Canada for decades, because of the quality of the training and the fact that it is much cheaper to do it here in North America. I bet if 9/11 had never occurred, this post would not exist. If these students got into Canada, and are " lawfully admitted into Canada for flight training" then your job is to train them accordingly to their needs.

T[/quote]

I wish more of us had that attitude. Let's educate ourselves instead of being obsessed with fear of people from the middle-east. Ask more questions and go fly with them in the twin and find out that they really are pilots...surely you don't think they are going to bring you down in a seminole! If I was already a pilot trained in another country and wanted to convert my licenses quickly, I wouldn't waste my time in a simulator at 50+ dollars/hr. and if I had the money, I would have trained in a twin too (and there are middle-easterns coming to canada that do have money). And before we go and call CSIS or the RCMP or any other authorities, let's think about how the authorites could screw up these peoples' lives; people who are most probably innocent. Look at Maher Arar, the Syrian living in Canada who was detained in the U.S. and deported to Syria all on "suspicion". Look at the hell he went through. Let's not turn into the United States.

greenwich · Post by **greenwich** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 11:34 am

I remember watching various news-casts (CNN etc.) in the weeks following 9/11 and they all focused around the various U.S. flight schools that trained the suicide-bombers.

The school owners and instructors were devestated in knowing that they all played a direct part in the 9/11 terrorist attacks! It destroyed their lives!

The saddest thing was that a majority of the owners and instructors that were interviewed all said the same thing: that they all had a "gut feeling" that something very strange was going on! Something was wrong!

Go with your gut feeling. You can make an anonymous call to the RCMP or visit their website and post your concern!

G

LT · Post by LT » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:03 pm

istp wrote:I say, give 'em a Jewish or female instructor, and see what they do.

Where do I sign up?

Panama Jack · Post by **Panama Jack** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:05 pm

Well, do they talk the talk and walk the walk?

In other words, do they fly as if they have previous military flight experience? I should think that getting into the aircraft, they can do a fairly decent job of controlling the thing, even if there are some scary moments (depending on what type they trained on in their home country).

IF they can fly half decently, well, the balance of terror certainly isn't changed by having terrorists with licences or without licences-- so they probably aren't. However, if the story doesn't gel-- time to call the Mounties.

Recently, the US has made it extremely difficult for foreign citizens to get visas and conduct flight training. Many are fed up with the US, and taking their business elsewhere.

Slick Fork · Post by **Slick Fork** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:15 pm

I think if I'm reading the initial post correctly, the warning bells went off because their stated training didn't match the skills they displayed. This can lead to the assumption of dishonesty, and when you have people being dishonest you have to ask why. So lets not jump down this guys throat and call him a racist.

Racial profiling is an unfortunate thing, but the reality is that most terrorists who have a beef with the North American way of life come from the Middle-East, are not Israeli and are typically very religious. Does this mean that all Muslims are fanatics who can't wait to strap a brick of plastic explosives onto their back and head out to the mall? Of course not, and it's unfortunate that those who are innocent must endure the extra scrutiny that their country-men bring upon them but I would rather subject these people to an interview then take chances.

It doesn't have to be a heavy jet to cause damage, you could probably load up a light twin with enough explosives to take out most buildings in North America.

If your gut is telling you that somethings not right, make the call.

LT · Post by LT » Sun Oct 31, 2004 12:18 pm

Cat Driver wrote:If a pilot wants to train on a multi and can afford to pay what in hell is it to the CFI or TC?

I'll get my facticious son to call you up on that offer ...

He'll pay for 10 minutes in your bird, he's 12 but he'll say he's 25, he'll say he's an Ex-Military pilot from Fiji* and we'll see how much you're willing to let him "fly your plane."

And if he does something wrong, you are not permitted to touch(assault) him or take away the controls, as he is "paying" for his ride..

These guys claim that they have already recieved military flight training in their own country, and are just converting to a Canadian multi/multi IFR so that they can get jobs here.

they fly like they've just finished a private license
Who has the responsibility to check up on how legitimate these guys are

Like I said, it's upto the CFI and TC to prove that their logbooks are legit. And that they even have a license.

Every other forgeign pilot that I've seen has gone to TC to have their logbooks and licenses verified..

After that, the CFI took the foreigner for a spin to see their skills..

But, hey, if you say you have an ATPL and Type rating on a A380 and the issueing authority is Antarctica, we should believe them, right?

Do they swear they have 5000TT on jets too?

*Changed countries origin. This debate has little to do with "race" or "ethnicity." Who cares where they're from, the question is why are they taking our jobs? And are their claims (Times and licenses) Legit

golden hawk · Post by **golden hawk** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 1:18 pm

Which 'mistake' can you live with ?

a) To call when you shouldn't have?

b) To not call when you should have?

Elliot Moose · Post by **Elliot Moose** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:01 pm

I've seen and trained pilots from all over the world. Let me tell you, it is seriously SCARY

what skills some pilots have when they show up to learn to fly a jet transport. We found that pilots from several countries need to begin training with an extra couple "remedial" sessions, just to get some basics laid out, before continuing with a standard (although seriously extended) version of our "normal" training package. Many are offended by the insinuation that their skills are inferior. Others want nothing to do with "lower level" training devices--they only want a full flight level D simulator.

Pilots from one subSaharan African country showed up with FAA ISSUED licences (well at least some of them eventually produced their papers) yet were almost totally unable to communicate in English (a basic requirement for the FAA ticket) and totally incapable of complying with a basic clearance--even a taxi clearance! We had to do about a five session BASIC IFR procedures course with them before we could even attempt to go further. For this I'm talking about things like the need to maintain altitudes within 100' and not 2000' like they were accustomed to.

We did actually have one young fellow show up and fork over a wad of cash to pay for type training. Lots of dodgy things about that one, and some serious warning bells went off, since he had almost no time, a poor attitude and on the surface some wierd connections. Since we are a training unit recognized by the FAA , we were compelled to notify the authorities., Turns out he was just a seriously spoiled rich kid, whose daddy had lined him up a job if he showed with a type in hand

My advice would be this:
1)check out his papers. Should have passport, student visa or some similar, and a clearly valid licence from country of origin in hand (or at least what appears to be one) along with a log book
2)If any of these seem dodgy, call that country's issuing authority to see if it's square there.
3)Call immigration and ask "Does a pilot from Lesser Upmybumistan require any special papers to train here, like a student visa, etc."
4)You don't need to worry too much about him taking your job, since there are basically no rules prohibiting foreign nationals from holding our licences (it will serve as an ICAO) ticket and allow them to work in various other countries. He can't use it to WORK in Canada without a permit to work here anyways. For instance, I hold an FAA ticket so I can teach FAA students here, and fly N-registered planes all over the world. I certainly can't go and jump into a seat at USairways though without all the other green card BS
5)If any or all of the above doesn't check out then call in the men on the horsies to check further. If he's kosher (or should I say halal) then he may be a bit pissed at you for setting him up for a nasty interview, but everybody will sleep better.

Right Seat Captain · Post by **Right Seat Captain** » Sun Oct 31, 2004 2:11 pm

I wouldn't call this racial profiling. It's notthe colour of his skin, or his religion that rings the alarm bells in my head. It is the circumstances. If the same situation came up with caucasian, latin american, african, indian, chinese, who cares. It's damn suspicious and you have a responsibility to do something about it.

Here's a big ol' can a worms.......

Here's a big ol' can a worms.......

Re: Here's a big ol' can a worms.......

can o worms

Re: Here's a big ol' can a worms.......