What's the general feel about the recent announcement? Are any of the current staff hoping to x-train or are you all awaiting your ticket outbound?

Well I can't speak for them of course, but I'd be SHOCKED if ANY of the FSS turn down cross training. Not getting into VFR at such a chance would be a fool's choice.

While I completely understand that frame of mind, I'm wondering if they're weighing that against the uhhh... 'joy' of living in YMM with its long winters and mega-expensive real estate market. We've all heard the horror stories, I'm sure.

unless some of them don't want to be controllers.

On principle? LOL
I think you'd be hard pressed to find an FSS who wouldn't accept some retraining for a 50-100% pay raise and reduced hours.

But my question remains... how is actually working there?

I'd probably turn it down, I like my job just fine as is.

LOL
well. good for you.

now anybody here from YMM?

LWTwr wrote:On principle? LOL
I think you'd be hard pressed to find an FSS who wouldn't accept some retraining for a 50-100% pay raise and reduced hours.

But my question remains... how is actually working there?

I don't think it would be a 50% - 100% pay raise. Most FSS base salary is 50K-75K ish. Definately a raise but if it ends up a low grade tower which it likely will it may be a step sideways pay wise in YMM as opposed to a step up.

just more pay improvement opportunities in the long run. If it wasn't in such a shitty place it would be interesting. A growing area, lots of IFR, soon to have a new terminal and another runway. They aren't building a lot of new runways these days.

As the Yale admissions officer on the Simpsons said: We could use an international airport.
Burns: You think I'm made of airports?! Get out of here!

Exactly like Sulako said, low grade towers and FSS are paid similar amounts but the top end of ATC is exponentially higher than FSS.

bigfssguy wrote:Exactly like Sulako said, low grade towers and FSS are paid similar amounts but the top end of ATC is exponentially higher than FSS.

My last year in a Grade 1 tower I pulled in 90k with a lil' overtime and I've only got 4 years in. I had no idea FSS were making that kind of money. I'll be sure to mention that in our next round of negotiations.

LWTwr wrote:

bigfssguy wrote:Exactly like Sulako said, low grade towers and FSS are paid similar amounts but the top end of ATC is exponentially higher than FSS.

My last year in a Grade 1 tower I pulled in 90k with a lil' overtime and I've only got 4 years in. I had no idea FSS were making that kind of money. I'll be sure to mention that in our next round of negotiations.

Where's your smiley face at the end of your last sentence? Oh, don't worry. You still make more money than us. You think the ex AI's in upper management would ever let us catch up? Although I did make more than you last year, but I've also been in 3 times longer. I hope that's not upsetting???

Im made more last year too, except i have t live in the north for it!!

I was just reading your contract and had a question LWtwr. You said you made 90K at an AI1 tower. According to your contract as of april 1/08 a person with 4 years seniority would make a base salary 65,434$ with an OFP of 1035$. More than my base for sure but where does the rest come from. I know i make a few thousand a year from shift differential and holidays but nothing much. Where do you make up the rest of the difference.

bigfssguy wrote:

LWTwr wrote:On principle? LOL
I think you'd be hard pressed to find an FSS who wouldn't accept some retraining for a 50-100% pay raise and reduced hours.

But my question remains... how is actually working there?

I don't think it would be a 50% - 100% pay raise. Most FSS base salary is 50K-75K ish. Definately a raise but if it ends up a low grade tower which it likely will it may be a step sideways pay wise in YMM as opposed to a step up.

Makes you wonder if there is any cost savings with closing CYSB tower. You guys can't have it both ways. Some of you have been arguing in the other thread that because FSS make so much less than ATC, closing the CYSB tower is a big cost savings. And now you are saying a low grade tower, and a high grade FSS make about the same amount. Which is it?

I would hazard to guess that CYSB would be a high grade FSS. Maybe there is no savings in salary only a degradation of efficiency.

Makes you wonder if there is any cost savings with closing CYSB tower. You guys can't have it both ways. Some of you have been arguing in the other thread that because FSS make so much less than ATC, closing the CYSB tower is a big cost savings. And now you are saying a low grade tower, and a high grade FSS make about the same amount. Which is it?

I would hazard to guess that CYSB would be a high grade FSS. Maybe there is no savings in salary only a degradation of efficiency.

Top increment FSS at a grade 3 site is $65,814 with no OFB compared to top increment Grade 1 tower which is just over $84,000 + OFB. FSS also operate single stand at different times and provide weather obs (no more weather contract).

These are all base salaries. Both would be subject to overtime with CATCA members all ot 2x and ATSAC members 1.5x first day, then 2x.

zzjayca wrote:

bigfssguy wrote:

LWTwr wrote:On principle? LOL
I think you'd be hard pressed to find an FSS who wouldn't accept some retraining for a 50-100% pay raise and reduced hours.

But my question remains... how is actually working there?

I don't think it would be a 50% - 100% pay raise. Most FSS base salary is 50K-75K ish. Definately a raise but if it ends up a low grade tower which it likely will it may be a step sideways pay wise in YMM as opposed to a step up.

Makes you wonder if there is any cost savings with closing CYSB tower. You guys can't have it both ways. Some of you have been arguing in the other thread that because FSS make so much less than ATC, closing the CYSB tower is a big cost savings. And now you are saying a low grade tower, and a high grade FSS make about the same amount. Which is it?

I would hazard to guess that CYSB would be a high grade FSS. Maybe there is no savings in salary only a degradation of efficiency.

Touche!!


FSS tends to be cheaper since we require less bodies to staff a facility 24hrs plus you can get rid of the contract weather since we do it. Salaries are reasonably comparable though senior ATC will make considerably more than us. What i'm getting at is it takes 7-8 FSS to run a place 24 hours vs. 8-9 controllers part time and a CWO. Less bodies mean less money.

And that $20K salary difference.

I can't understand why you're asking:

While I completely understand that frame of mind, I'm wondering if they're weighing that against the uhhh... 'joy' of living in YMM with its long winters and mega-expensive real estate market.

The FSS are there in place, have their housing situation already in order, have experienced the long winters and 'survived' ... only question is, do they want to go over to the 'dark side'.
Actually, if it were me, I'd do it in a heartbeat... the extra pay will relieve stress related to housing costs + OFB + now being able to tell an aircraft to fly heading 090 and get the hell outta my airspace when it messes around, sweetness.

Just remember a few things about the FSS's in YMM.

First, the company will have to move any who do not wish to cross over. That means all expenses are covered to change locations. I don't know which locations would be available, but anyplace might be more attractive than YMM. If an FSS person owns a house/condo, they could do very well by selling now and moving.

Second, FSS does not require a medical, so out of the 11 (number I heard at work) in YMM, some may not be able to cross over.

Third, it is quite a different skill/mind set to change from FSS to VFR Controller. I know personally of at least 2 who could not change over. 1 friend from my original VFR course tried YZF tower, couldn't do it, went back to NCTI for FSS training and qualified there as FSS. 3 years later, YZF wanted him back in the tower, but after 3 months it was very evident that he couldn't control.

I am making a sweet wild ass guess that out of the 11 specialist I think that we may get 5 staying and be able to cross over.

NAVCANADA has sent us out an email that says it wants the tower open in under 6 months operating under limited hours. They also want to relocate some controllers up there, but they are going to have a real bitch of a time finding volunteers to move up there. It will most likely be an ATC-2 tower, no northern benifits, and I highly doubt they will even offer subsidized housing. They could try having Ab-Initios sent there straight from TCTI, but the basic training wage is just over 30000$/year. I can just picture some young trainee sitting in a bar in YMM, barely surviving on that kind of money there, and being bought drinks from buddies bragging about making 3 times that driving trucks. How long would it take you to say "Screw this!". NAVCANADA has a serious problem about being able to staff this tower.

Just my 2.5 cents.

Rob Benusic
CYEG Tower

Second, FSS does not require a medical, so out of the 11 (number I heard at work) in YMM, some may not be able to cross over.

Hey Rob. Just a correction to your above statement, FSS DO require a medical. Every 3 years till 40, every 2 years after that. Not sure where you got the no medical thing from.

robshelle wrote: Third, it is quite a different skill/mind set to change from FSS to VFR Controller. I know personally of at least 2 who could not change over. 1 friend from my original VFR course tried YZF tower, couldn't do it, went back to NCTI for FSS training and qualified there as FSS. 3 years later, YZF wanted him back in the tower, but after 3 months it was very evident that he couldn't control.

Just to add to this (third party info mind you), I was told by both people upstairs and downstairs in YZF, that it was attitude that CT'd him both times. I could be wrong though................

For the FSS/VFR trainee, knowing him personnally (although I never worked with him on the job), I doubt it was his attitude. Also, talking with a couple of the controllers from YZF in the past, it sounded like it was an inability for him to make a decision when it was required. As FSS he apparently could identify conflictions and suggest to the pilots solutions, but when it came down to it for him to actually implement those decisions, he couldn't. Again, this was all second hand information.

As for the medical, the ones we do are Transport Canada Class 2 Aviation Medicals, good for 2 years, 1 year if over 40. I did not know you required a medical, but they may not be to the same standard, I don't know.

Rob Benusic, CYEG Tower

FSS medicals do not require a prescribed TC level becasue it is not required due to the fact we are certified not licensed like ATC. The medicals are more or less the same requirments witha few changes. FSS have to go outside and tromp around in the snow and rain and mud for weather so you can't have any physical handicap that will preclude you from doing that as well we have a couple other things that pretain to Northern/Isolated living (eg:TB test etc.)

Sorry, boys 'n girls. I've been away for a week.

woxof, no I really coudln't care less if you've made more than me. This isn't a competition. I know, I know... you wanted that to bother me. Sorry Better luck next time.
To answer your question, OFP was $5k, not not 1k and EDP+OT at 2x makes up the difference.

To those who actually made an attempt to answer the questin about YMM, thanks!