The airlines and fuel----are they stupid?

[squawk 7600]

All I can say is the airlines are idiots if they say they didn't see this coming. The analysts have been predicting this since last summer when prices temporarly dove to $0.90 a litre. They have been predicting $150 a barrel for a long time now. The airlines should have been preparing for this since then....but nope, now the usual knee jerk reactions, cry the blues, etc., etc! Can we afford another pay cut in this god for saken business we all love? You watch, it's going to happen. For all you AC folk, '09 won't be good. And for all you cool-aid drinkers, your profit share and stock options won't be worth a whole pile of piss, so don't get caught spending it before it doesn't arrive.

[Raybanman]

Wow. Have a cup of coffee! Its still early Who knows how its going to go. Hopefully we won't get dinged on the paycheck this year, since there are other very easy ways of saving fuel such as not running APU's at GPU equipped stations, slowing down 5 or 10 kts etc. Seeing as how I don't work for big red or team teal I don't know what they have implemented in this corner.

[Norfolk]

[Legacy]

This is just getting crazy and a world driven by greed, no longer money. The gov't should be stepping in a regulating the price of oil to $80 per barrel. The oil companies would still make money hand over fist at 80 AND the revenue would still benefit the gov't but oh yeah i forget......GREED.

[small penguin]

You're getting paid to fly! Shaddup and enjoy

[bandit1]

Of course we get paid to fly! What do you think the airline industry is, a non-profit organization??? We're professionals and we get paid to do what we do.

If the airlines raise the ticket costs to compensate for the fuel costs and alot of people decide to fly less, there might be less work out there. And that affects all of us in the the lower seniority levels because if they park planes, they'll be parking pilots too.

It's normal to be concerned, the industry is cyclic and there has been major layoffs in the past and there will be in the future.

Flying for us is a career and for alot of us, our only source of income. I can just ''shut up and fly'' as you say but I want to keep an eye on things to evaluate whether I'll be getting paid to do this in the next couple of years.

Remember Jetsgo? Royal? Canada 3000? Alot of good, highly qualified pilots were out of work. Alot less budget carriers around to take the hit now and I think it will happen at the big guys next time.

[small penguin]

My point was more... Why do you fly? Its not for the money. Its because you like to fly. And if its not, quit!

You're there because you like the work, not cause the money is good. Because in fact, its not. From what I've seen on this board I make more money that some (most?) of you out there and my work consists of "playing" with computers.

I fly too (GA though) and dont complain one bit about having to be spending to do what I like while you guys get paid for it

[edit]
Just as a side dish - there is a big difference between being concerned about your wages, and complaining about your wages.

[squawk 7600]

Small penguin,

You don't deserve an opinion on this. You don't fly professionaly so you really have no idea what we go through, the struggles we have, the sacrifies we've made to get here. So until then, don't lecture me on what I should or should not complain about with respect to my job.

[small penguin]

You're right, I dont know what you go through. But I know what I would do. If I dont like my job, I quit, and get another one. Be it for better work or better pay. I dont come on a website to complain

[squawk 7600]

You're obviously not paying attention then. No one is saying they don't like their job, we are just saying that we deserve to be compensated fairly and some stability. Is that too much to ask? Would you say you are compensated fairly for just "playing" on computers? If you love "playing" on computers so much, then maybe you should take a pay cut. From what I can understand, that's the point you are trying to make....am I wrong?

[KAG]

My point was more... Why do you fly? Its not for the money. Its because you like to fly. And if its not, quit!

You're there because you like the work, not cause the money is good. Because in fact, its not. From what I've seen on this board I make more money that some (most?) of you out there and my work consists of "playing" with computers.
.

I made 70K ish flying King Airs, they get paid more now. Next year I'll be making over 100K as a FO on the 737, then as a skipper with 7 years under my belt, more like 180K (salary, forget ESP, options) If thats bad money you have some unrealistic ideals.
I also happen to love my job, and get paid well. Do you?

[small penguin]

You're obviously not paying attention then. No one is saying they don't like their job, we are just saying that we deserve to be compensated fairly and some stability. Is that too much to ask? Would you say you are compensated fairly for just "playing" on computers? If you love "playing" on computers so much, then maybe you should take a pay cut. From what I can understand, that's the point you are trying to make....am I wrong?

My point is, I like playing with computers. So I would do it for half of what Im getting paid to do it now.. and I have, once upon a time. But, the tech sector is booming. There arent enough IT pros to fill demands. So those out there do get paid better. Last I heard the airlines werent exactly in the same situation. Would I take a pay cut? I'd sure as heck prefer not to, and there's no reason at all why my employer would cut my pay. But depending how much my employer cut me, I have the option of saying 'bye' and going to another business.

KAG - 70K for flying King Airs? I certainly hope that is not the kind of salary the OP is complaining about! I make just a little less than that right now.

[KAG]

Small...To give you an idea....smaller companies are grounding planes because of a lack of qualified pilots. They are paying really good money to fly small machines.
The airlines in Canada are still hiring, still expanding and still losing staff to retirements. Yes there is a slow down in the summer - HR depts. go on vacation. And in some cases (AC) hiring is slowing to only cover retirements (or so the rumor goes), they already hired hundreds of new pilots. WJ, Jazz, porter, Sunwing, First Air, CDN North, are all still hiring. So it’s a great time to be an experienced pilot.
Over seas the majors are hiring as fast as they can.

Guys (like myself) bitch about entry level pay at these above mentioned airlines. It is tough to take a 50% pay cut to fly a bigger plane in the right seat. We got used to earning a certain wage, and yes it was tough to give it up. Short term pain, long term gain.
Some will complain just for the sake of it.

Your right about leaving your job if you’re that unhappy. You’re dead wrong about flying for the fun of it. Anyone who feels that way can enjoy general aviation. Leave to commercial flying to the professionals.

[small penguin]

Curious - If someone is really unhappy about taking that 50% pay cut to get into a bigger plane... then why take the step? If it were me, I'd stay where Im happy. If the money makes me happy (or happier than the flying) maybe the left seat in the smaller plane at 50% better pay (using your example) is best. If the flying makes me happy, then the 50% pay cut to get into something bigger might be worth it, even short term.

*shrugs*

[KAG]

Your thinking short term. I may take a 50% pay cut first year, but by say year 3, I'm past what I was making, and as a senior CPT, your making a lot more. Also flying a King air is fun and all, but loading, unloading, cleaning, deicing and not being able to stand up or take a piss in something other then a gator aid bottle is nice. Also having travel passes, and a schedule that you can bid on and a FA bringing you coffee is a nice perk.
It's all about lifestyle. The airlines offers you one of the best liftsyles a lazy pilot can ask for.

So the 50% paycut is short term pain.

[yycflyguy]

Nice explanations KAG and 100% on the money.

[Dust Devil]

This is just getting crazy and a world driven by greed, no longer money. The gov't should be stepping in a regulating the price of oil to $80 per barrel. The oil companies would still make money hand over fist at 80 AND the revenue would still benefit the gov't but oh yeah i forget......GREED.

you're kidding right?

[bmc]

All I can say is the airlines are idiots if they say they didn't see this coming. The analysts have been predicting this since last summer when prices temporarly dove to $0.90 a litre. They have been predicting $150 a barrel for a long time now. The airlines should have been preparing for this since then....but nope, now the usual knee jerk reactions, cry the blues, etc., etc! Can we afford another pay cut in this god for saken business we all love? You watch, it's going to happen. For all you AC folk, '09 won't be good. And for all you cool-aid drinkers, your profit share and stock options won't be worth a whole pile of piss, so don't get caught spending it before it doesn't arrive.

Tell us what the airlines should be doing now to prepare for 2009. Some analysts are saying $200 a barrel
before it goes down. Tell us specifically what they should be doing now, in the next three months, to prepare for summer 2009.

[bmc]

You're obviously not paying attention then. No one is saying they don't like their job, we are just saying that we deserve to be compensated fairly and some stability. Is that too much to ask? Would you say you are compensated fairly for just "playing" on computers? If you love "playing" on computers so much, then maybe you should take a pay cut. From what I can understand, that's the point you are trying to make....am I wrong?

You want stability in the airline business? Are you new to this? Are you not aware of the cyclical nature of the industry? The boom and bust? Ordering new airplanes as profitability is on the up and up? Growing when the money is there. Shrinking as the economy pulls back.

I'm assuming you are currently adequately compensated, otherwise you wouldn't be there.

[flying4dollars]

You're getting paid to fly! Shaddup and enjoy

Thats a poor mentality

It's bad enough wages aren't as high as they could or should be, we don't need people encouraging it with statements like that.

[Panama Jack]

This is just getting crazy and a world driven by greed, no longer money. The gov't should be stepping in a regulating the price of oil to $80 per barrel. The oil companies would still make money hand over fist at 80 AND the revenue would still benefit the gov't but oh yeah i forget......GREED.

Dude, pick up a book about Economics sometime.

[MUSKEG]

I am so sick and tired of pilots complaining about money. Know one forced you to get into this carreer and if you went in blind you have only yourself to blame. All companies are out to make money, that is the number one priority. If that provides people the opportunity of employment so be it. Owners will always pay only as much as the economic climate forces them to pay. If you don't like what you are making then you are the only one capable of changing that. I was one of you and when enough was enough I moved on. Like I have said before, financially speaking a charter pilot carreer choice will be one of the poorest choices you can make. You can bitch and complain all you want but the economic climate and the tendancy of would be pilots to see only what they want the industry to be will dictate what you will make. Take off the rose colored glasses and stop believing what your buddies say about how glamourous this all is. Look at what they drive and what they eat, and if you think thats ok then go for it but stop your bitchin when reality is worse than you thought it would be.

[bmc]

Good post Muskeg. A lot of the whiners in life will always be victims, blaming somebody else for their woes.

[W5]

Oil price mocks fuel realities

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Global_Eco ... 4Dj02.html

[carholme]

Norway's Statoil is delaying it's Alberta Oil Sands project.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/reuters/0805 ... lsands_col

As the Chinese are already taking a hard look at Talisman Energy, how long will it be before we see them going after the Oil Sands?


carholme