katana as a trainer

[paokara]

just asking how the katana flies as a trainer and do instructors like it in terms of spirals and spins. any info on this type of aircraft would be nice and thanks.

thanks

[Adam Oke]

I've got some time in the Katanta but MichealP I'm sure could give you a better response. They're usually cheaper to rent out, so that's a plus. Less draggy so you need to be slightly more responsive on the spiral, and they enter a spin with realtively the same characteristics of a modern glider (fun!). They're much quieter, more comfortable, more modern, and have a MUCH better view with the bubble canopy. They are constant speed which is a plus, you get more out of that dinky little engine. Anyone can fly fixed pitch really, you kind of have to know what you're doing for the extra blue handle constant speed. Likely makes Multi training cheaper for those that like to take more hands on practical approach to things. ie. Cheaper meaning...cheaper to learn the blue handle in the DA vs a Seneca. It's cruises a handful of knots slower then your typical buck 72, but nothing to shake a stick at. They're bloody hot in the summer time!!! Checklists out the window during taxi and runup is common practice . At least in the Cessna's you can taxi around with the doors open, and the beercan air-con works ok. They're stick! Bonus! .... big let down ... they are a stick nosedragger ...

That's all I can think of. I kind of jump around quite a bit, but I didn't know what you were looking for exactly.

[C-GGGQ]

I flew the Eclipse and the Evolution (both Katana variants). Great view, really hot as Adam stated. These two were quite a bit faster than a 172 and i thought the Katana was as well but i could be mistaken. These were fixed pitch as well. They spin quite well (didn't expect it the first time) and after a day of doing only spin lessons (though i like spins) i was thoroughly done with spinning for a while. They are comfortable to fly, your hands and feet fit right on to the controls very instinctively. This however i found to be a problem while i was instructing trying to keep my feet off the controls put my legs into a weird position and i'd tend to cramp up but thats just my experience. Flair height is a bit lower than a 172 so if your transitioning, it will be something to get used to. Nose wheel is castoring so not as nice to ground handle as a 172 since it is a steerable nose wheel, though its by no means difficult. thats all i can really think of, you'll have to wait for MichaelP's input for anything else.

[Lloyd Christmas]

The Katana is a great trainer in my opinion, I wish I could still fly it:( The stick is a great way to fly rather than the conventional yoke, i just found it more fun, and the plane is really responsive so cranking and banking can be a joy! It's holds a crosswind quite well too, so don't be shy to practice those x-wind landings. Otherwise, most other things have been said already, give it a shot, im sure you will enjoy it!

Lloyd



That John Denver's full of $hit man!

[MichaelP]

We have two Katana's and a C1 Eclipse (Katana ).
IMHO the Katana with the 80hp Rotax 912 is the better trainer of the two types, but the Eclipse is a superb go places aeroplane, a little too hot for the average student pilot.
I have not had the pleasure of flying the Katana with the 100hp 912S but I'm willing to bet it is a good compromise between the 80 and 125 hp engines.

The Katana will perform as well as a Cessna 152 in the circuit, it is faster in the cruise but needs careful handling in the climb. Use 60 knots in the climb and she won't climb as well, use 69 knots and she gets up there just as well.
We try to use 80KIAS around 24" 2100/2200 RPM in the downwind as this is the most common speed for most SE training aircraft, as the wings align with the end of the runway 20 to 22" is set slowing to 65-70KIAS, 15" down to 12" on base, and throttle closed on finals unless a soft field landing is called for.

What is required is precision when flying all aircraft with low powered engines.
That precision is in itself an excellent quality in a trainer.

Read the AFM! The Rotax engine always starts easily if you use the correct procedure. Open the throttle a little, Briggs and Stratton type aircraft engine style, and she will not start cold, the throttle should be closed, pull the choke and instant start every time.
When warm, half an inch of throttle, no choke, and instant start again.

Like the PT6 turbine, the oil should be checked after running the engine or turning it over by hand. It is easy to put too much oil into the engine! The oil tank is separate to the engine itself and so oil will run down into the engine to be pumped back when it is running.

The C1 has a Briggs and Stratton technology Continental engine that's a bugger to start!
I prime and turn it over several times, prime it again and turn it over some more, first thing in the morning. It starts first time using my procedure.
Use the checklist procedure and you grind and grind the starter and I hate to know how much wear and tear this involves...
I had a visit from a Transport inspector a while back, and I said I've just got to help the renter to start the engine... The inspector came down and saw what I did... It's just the way it is.
Continental lost the beautiful starting characteristics of the O-200 when they put an injection system in this engine. I flew the carburetted RR O-240 and it started as easy as an O-200.

Flying the Katanas is a joy, they handle quite well though I'd like more effective ailerons... They are much more fun than the staid old Cessnas. The better visibility when flying in the Lower Mainland's congested airspace is an important safety bonus. You see other traffic much more easily than when you have a wing blocking your view.
I tend to prefer steep turns in a Cessna because a slow gentle turn will block your vision! In the Katana there's no such problem.

If you have sensibility for the air and how it moves, the Katana is better than a Cessna as it has elegant aerodynamics... I set 23" and 2100 RPM out of Chilliwack the other day, 80 knots at best... I climbed at this power and speed, until I was at 4,700 feet over Pitt Lake.
How? There's lift on the mountainsides, and then cloud streets took over and we soared up there.... Multi turn spins got us down again

I went to PFC to fly Katanas when they had them... I joined Chiang Mai Flying Club because they had two Katanas... There's nothing special about a Cessna, but the Katana is very special indeed.

The Katana is not suitable for people who are vertically challenged! 6 foot 4" people have a problem getting in.
I tell people I am glad I am standard size, I can fly anything

We need another one, so if anyone knows of a Katana for sale please let me know.

[KenoraPilot]

The Katana was an excellent trainer...did over 100 hours of my PPL and CPL in it! Not so great for guys such as me...6'3" but otherwise an awsome plane for basic flight training....not very good either for long haul x-country. I enjoyed every min in the Katana...more so than the PA-140.

[MichaelP]

To prove a point yesterday we did a PFL from the middle of the Pitt Lake practice area from 3,400 feet.
Previously we'd gone down into a field below, normal style, but this time we went to Pitt Meadows airport over 7 NM from where we were, into a 5 to 10 knot headwind, arrived overhead 18 too high, did a circuit and landed.
Try that in a Cessna or Cherokee!

[Louis]

Katana C1s are really fun to fly. Crisp handling compared to the Cessnas. Others

A few "adjustments" you'll have to make when switching from Cessnas:

-Like Michael said the Continental IO-240 is a pain to start.
-In winter ops, the C1 is usually the first type on the ramp to start and last one to stop using the engine heater. Combined with its relatively small battery, you may want to keep an EPU on hand...
-Taxiing is a bit different from airplanes with a steerable nose wheel. Becomes quite interesting in the winter, you have to watch out for icy patches a bit more given how dependent you are on your brakes.
-Be careful once you've touched down as the brakes and rudder are still very effective.
-While not by much, it's the C1 is as fast or faster than most 172s. The airframe is much cleaner, and has a higher glide ratio, which means you have to plan your approaches a bit better, as sideslips won't be quite as effective if you're too high. Plus recent service bulletins/ADs (not sure which) apparently require to raise the idle setting somewhat (or so our PRM says), which does not help bringing it down either.
-It floats much more during the flare. Do not attempt a landing with T/O flaps unless you have a rather long runway (4000'+).

I'll see if I can think of some more in the next few days.

Goodbye,

Louis

[MichaelP]

For those of you that are interested...
With respect to the lawnmower technology IO-240 engine in the DA20-C1.

The winterisation front baffles (I don't bother with the rear ones) are in and out, in and out, at this time of the year.
We leave them in until the ground temperature exceeds 20 degrees C. They say they should be removed at 12.5 deg C but if you do this below 20 degrees the aeroplane will run too cold.
The oil temperature and especially the CHT will never reach the green.
We had a CADORs when the aeroplane returned with the oil temp below the green.

Even with the baffles in, the CHT will be barely in the green.

When the weather exceeded 20 degrees we had the aeroplane return do to the oil temp being high in the climb to 4,500 feet... It came down alright but the aeroplane returned just in case.
Even so the CHT stayed well in limits.

It is difficult to keep the CHT within the limits, and it is very important that the mixture is leaned properly whatever the altitude is.
The baffles are very easy to put in, two camlocs each, and pilots have to add another thing to their decision making skills.

Training in this aircraft has to be better than in the low performance Cessna... The C1 is an aeroplane that performs, really performs! It is perhaps a better preparation for the Cirrus and other higher performance aeroplanes in the student's future.

You need to plan for your descent, know your TOD point is much further back than in the draggy Cessna. It is easy to end up too high and try to descend at a higher speed and perhaps shock cool the precious engine.

All students here get to do flapless landings. These take planning!

My morning start procedure is:

10 seconds priming, turn the prop by hand through 6 revolutions, 5 seconds priming, turn it another 4 by hand, and she'll fire up easily!
Make sure the ignition is off, mixture ICO and throttle closed when turning it by hand. There must be someone in the cockpit who knows what he/she is doing and the brakes on.
Use the checklist procedure and you grind the starter for too long for me to be happy.
You also IMHO risk fire... I don't know of any fires, but the excessive priming without drawing it into the cylinders (sucking in) has to be a fire risk.
No modern engine should require this sort of procedure.

The modern Rotax engine suffers none of the above. It starts easily, and you can close the throttle and dive it on a cold day without so much risk!

I hear other schools do not fly these DA20-C1 aeroplanes in the rain!
As soon as I saw that resin leading edge on the Sensenich prop, an amateur way of making a propeller!, it had to come off.
We have the MT propeller on ours and can fly full throttle through the rain if we want to... But with this prop, full throttle means 143 Knots as well!
The MT propeller has a stainless steel leading edge and is built with German quality and sophistication.

These two points:

Plus recent service bulletins/ADs (not sure which) apparently require to raise the idle setting somewhat (or so our PRM says), which does not help bringing it down either.
-It floats much more during the flare. Do not attempt a landing with T/O flaps unless you have a rather long runway (4000'+).

1. The RPM thing was a problem to do with the B17 fuel injection system and no longer applies to aircraft modified to the original injection system... It won't idle below 950 though.

2. We land flapless and you don't need 4,000 feet if you plan it properly.
Do not use the best glide speed, do not exceed 60 knots, and do slip the bugger if you need to!

[Big Pistons Forever]

MichealP

You seem to be well versed on the tupperware trainer so perhaps you can answer a questions I have. Why doesn't the Katana have a second throttle on the left side of the cockpit so the left seater can fly with the right hand on the stick and his/her left hand on the throttle ?

[MichaelP]

If it was built in France it would... I am surprised the Austrians didn't think of it...
The Slingsbat had two throttles as does the CAP 10 and the Robin DR400.

Of course the aeroplane is meant to comply with the American standards, in this it failed in that the joystick was retained and not thrown out for a silly steering wheel, airliner style.
So you can still enjoy the aeroplane.

The USAF DA20-C1s had their instruments on the right side for the 'pilot' to fly it from this side... Perhaps we should all drive right hand drive?

When I was in China it was rumoured that Diamond were going to make an aerobatic version of the DA20... I wonder what happened to this idea?

[Louis]

Just to clear up my point about floating down the runway...

Flapless do require some planning in the approach (read: ideally give yourself plenty of room for a shallow approach), and are also part of what I ask a student to manage properly prior to solo or checkout. And like Michael said, sideslip 'til your legs hurt if you must.

However, while landing with T/O flaps might not require 4000' of runway to come to a stop, I recall taking the better part of 2000' in "normal" conditions before the wheels finally touched down. This was due to an absent-minded student combined with me not looking at the /$/%&?%! switch. Even though we were on a touch and go, I just about to call a go-around when the wheels finally touched.

Goodbye,

Louis

[MichaelP]

For the flapless approach we use 60 KIAS and not the best glide speed otherwise we go trans provincial or well into the USA! Full flap the C1 approach speed is 52 KIAS.
When slipping care should be taken to not go too fast as this will in effect nullify the benefit of slipping.

The other day in the A1 Katana I pulled the Flap Circuit Breaker and the student continued to do circuits as normal... To make the picture right the nose was lowered as if the flaps were down and of course the speed rose.
Yes, there are indicator lights that show the flap position...
Do we notice visual and aural warnings???
The Katana's CS prop creates more drag and while we landed further down the runway it was easy enough.
On the third circuit after pulling the C/B I told the student what I had done!
Then we worked on slipping.
The Katana is a better training aeroplane in many ways, and this is one of them.
If the Eclipse had a constant speed propeller then this additional braking would make flapless approaches more practical.