Logging right seat time

duplicate2 · Post by **duplicate2** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:41 pm

I have a potential opportunity for a contract flying in the right seat of a Navajo for survey work (no, it's not Fugro), all VFR. As far as I can tell, the operator has nothing in their Ops Manual that refers to an F/O, be it for duties, training, whatever.

My understanding is that since the PA31 is a single-pilot a/c (on the type cert), in order to log co-pilot time in it the operator's Op Spec or Ops Manual must refer to 2 crew ops, therefore I would not be able to log this time legally.

Can anyone confirm this interpretation? Does anyone have any experience with logging co-pilot time in a Navajo under similar (or different, what were they?) circumstances? Was there any input/feedback from TC when applying for a higher licence?

And here's what might be a really stupid question: I know you can only count co-pilot time at 50% credit towards a higher licence (ATPL). However, is it standard practice when referring to one's total time (e.g. resumes, job applications, general bragging) to include all co-pilot time at 100% credit?

Thanks

canadian_bacon · Post by **canadian_bacon** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 6:53 pm

We operate a PA-31 both single pilot and two crew. Our ops manual spells out the minimum training requirement for the SIC if needed. The SIC is a requirement of the customer. We also have SOPs that exist for operation involving two crew. I havn't seen any problems with the SIC logging the time. Eventhough it is a single pilot certified aircraft, we operate as a crew when needed.

As far as Ops Specs go, the only Ops Spec I know that would relate to this is the one allowing the use of the "single pilot IFR" privilage. Without it, you are still required to operate a PA-31 with two crew when operating IFR.

jimmyjazz · Post by **jimmyjazz** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 7:59 pm

Hey Canadian Bacon from your answer here you might know the answer to a question that I put in the questions forum called PPC/PCC

canadian_bacon · Post by **canadian_bacon** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:31 pm

jazz, I posted a reply under the PPC/PCC header. PM me if you have any questions. Bacon.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:13 pm

It sounds like this is a 604 operator(private) in which case logging time is more or less verbootin. Dosn't do you a damn bit of good. I had a request from a pilot who flew for me at a now defunct company. I wrote back saying the pilot was PCC'd because that was company policy but the crew were two crew, carrying frieght in 'Hos and that all the autopilots were disabled and we had to increase the duty day with two pilots. I think TC bought that. We had a survey pilot with a Navajo PCC and we could not even use that. PPC's and PCC's are only transferable between air carriers.
Maybe all the operator needs is a voice activated autopilot. Check it out carefully. I hate to pee in your corn flakes but I have seen too many eager young loins taken to the cleaners. Lots of luck.

oldtimer · Post by **oldtimer** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 9:18 pm

Sorry for the spelling mistake, I meant "eager young lions". as in full of piss and vinegar.

Phlyer · Post by **Phlyer** » Mon Mar 01, 2004 10:11 pm

Most young guys are full of their 'loins' too!

FF

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:00 am

First of all you can log anything you want in your logbook. It's yours. But when you go for your ATPL, transport will need a letter from the operator stating that the ops manual specified two crew. Not the SOPs, the ops manual.

As for representing time on a resume, my personal take is that time is time. My total time is the number of hours that i have logged as a crew member flying an aircraft. Planes, helicopters, gliders, it all counts as far as i am concerned. Hell, as long as it was not a sizeable portion of the time i would put down ultra-light too. One thing though is that if a company specifies minimums, they may be doing so for insurance or contract reasons, in which case make sure that you do meet those requirements.

jimmyjazz:

I posted the controlling regs in that thread. What else would you like to know?

ahramin

co-joe · Post by **co-joe** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 12:56 am

That's a funny typo! Cool that you left it instead of editing it old timer. Having your loins taken to the cleaners would hurt!

As far as I know duplicate2 you absolutely have to have that right seat PCC to log SIC time. As for an ops spec, you got me there, but surely the operator stands to benefit from having 2 crew. Wouldn't insurance even cost less?

Oh and absolutely log your SIC time towards your total time. I personally break down my time into PIC, SIC, Piston, Turbine, Multi, ... but that's just me. But make sure it is leagally loggable first. If not, it is still good experience and if it pays the bills, or leads to that left seat then it could be worth it. For instance I know of a photo outfit out of PQ that starts their low timers in the camera seat and works them into the left seat as movement happens. cj

side note, they have a 414 with v-8 engines??? uses a boat load of runway but apparently efficient at altitude.

ndb · Post by **ndb** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 6:59 am

I know of a USA corporate operator that flies a Citation V single-pilot. It costs them an extra $40k/year for insurance, but I guess they'd rather pay $40k to the insurance company instead of $30K to a right seat pilot. Weird, eh?

The funny thing is that it wouldn't cost hardly anything to train a pilot to fly right seat part 91 - I think 3 takeoffs and landings would do, under the FARs.

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 9:14 am

guys, there is a program down in the states where you fly the twin otter and king air 90 for a parachute operation. I was enquiring about the 100 program, but for transport canada I think the PIC time down there only counts as dual up here and only 50 hours would be credited toward a higher licence. What do you guys think and know more about flying on the right seat in a twin otter or king air and how would I be able to log that time up here in beautiful Canada.

thanks guys fart

ahramin · Post by **ahramin** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 10:15 am

You cannot log dual on a revenue generating flight. Either you are a required crew member with training requirements met and log it as such (PIC, SIC) or you were just along for the ride as far as hours for the ATPL go.

ahramin

duplicate2 · Post by **duplicate2** » Tue Mar 02, 2004 8:01 pm

Some further details for this operation: it is 702 aerial work, day VFR only, the right seat guys don't get a PPC/PCC at all.

I think my questions are answered now. I believe oldtimer is right about the right seat guy being the autopilot. It would be good experience and it would be nice to make some coin, but I'm not sure I can afford to spend time not logging anything instead of doing an instructor rating now to be ready for the summer.

Thanks to all for the input.

helinas · Post by **helinas** » Wed Mar 03, 2004 6:37 am

It is a Part 91 Operation dropping skydivers in the Northeast United States. All I need to know is whether I can log this time legally where it would count in Canada whether it is PIC or SIC I don't care. What I am also looking for is the experience in an everyday operation and get to fly an aircraft such as the twin otter or king air 90.
Any recommendations would be appreciated, thank you guys. bang head

Logging right seat time

Logging right seat time

logging right seat time

logging right seat time