Expect higher clearance

[hamstandard]

At an uncontrolled airport I fly from regularly, our clearance is to a significantly lower planned altitude(at least 6k lower) with a statement of expect higher. Normally no SID is given. I would assume that if there was a com failure, we could go to our flight planned cruise altitude. But every once in a while we don't get the expect higher. One pilot said that the reason is because the weather is good at the departure airport and if we had a com failure we could go back in VFR. Is this correct or should we always ask for the expect higher altitude?

[AuxBatOn]

Personally, I would ask if I didn't have the gas to do the trip at the cleared altitude.

AuxBatOn

[ahramin]

If the weather is VFR then in a com failure situation after departure you would stay VFR and probably land back at the departure airport, therefore no need for the expect higher.

6.3.2.2 IFR Flight Plan
(a) Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC): If the failure
occurs in VMC, or if VMC are encountered after the
failure, the pilot-in-command shall continue the flight
under VFR and land as soon as practicable.
NOTE: This procedure applies in any class of airspace.
The primary purpose is to preclude extended IFR
operation in controlled airspace in VMC. However,
it is not intended that the requirement to “land as
soon as practicable” be construed to mean “land as
soon as possible.” The pilot retains the prerogative of
exercising his/her best judgment and is not required
to land at an unauthorized airport, at an airport
unsuitable for the type of aircraft flown, or to land
only minutes short of destination.

[invertedattitude]

Personally, I would ask if I didn't have the gas to do the trip at the cleared altitude.

AuxBatOn

It doesn't matter anyhow, there are rules regarding such events...

From the CFS, I will parse out so I'm not typing all night
IFR FLIGHT PLAN
VMC If failure occurs in VMC pilot shall continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable
Note: This procedure applies in any class of airspace..... The pilot is not required to land at an unauthorized airport, or an airport unsuitable for the aircraft....

IMC

b) ALTITUDE:

At the highest of the following altitude or flight levels for the route segment being flown:
i) Thealtitudes or flight levels last assigned in the last ATC Clx recieved AND acknowledged or

ii) The minimum IFR Alt

III)The altitude or flight level ATC has advised may be expected in a further clx.



So to answer your question, if you're VFR that day I'd say the controller is correct in saying such, but if you're IFR you follow the rules as listed above for your particular situation...

[AuxBatOn]

Yup, but we all know what forecasts are. I have yet to see one really accurate. Better be safe than sorry. Do something about it while you sit on the ground. That way, you won't scramble in the air when shit hits the fan and nothing is as forecast. This is just my take. I tend to err on the safe side.

AuxBatOn

[invertedattitude]

Yup, but we all know what forecasts are. I have yet to see one really accurate. Better be safe than sorry. Do something about it while you sit on the ground. That way, you won't scramble in the air when shit hits the fan and nothing is as forecast. This is just my take. I tend to err on the safe side.

AuxBatOn

I agree, but there is provisions listed as well if its IFR that the pilot use his/her best judgement, which essentially opens up a world of possibilities.

[pelmet]

The question is this. Is ATC not giving an 'expect higher' clearance based on departure airport weather?

[Salty83]

The reason for the expect higher is because IFR controllers want to leave room to play with in regards to other aircraft, or for the reason of allowing an IFR aircraft to depart and get on course with conflicting traffic above, when the above traffic is no longer a conflict, you will be cleared higher. If the controller doesnt' give you a expect higher plus 5 or by a certain point, its most likely that the altitude you got was safe in regards to terrain and mea's or that he or she forgot and if it is not a safe alt, bug them for higher.

[AuxBatOn]

Salty, I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the Expect Higher is for Comm Fail.

AuxBatOn

[Salty83]

sometimes it may be,

but in general practice in YVR ACC, its used to clear an aircraft off the ground to a usable altitude with traffic higher above that would conflict, we can't clear an aircraft to an altitude that another aircraft is at or climbing to above or near an airport, we have to give the ac an altitude that is lower so as to minmize conflictions and maintain separation. this is especially used in vancouver FIR due to the fact that at most of the airports, an aircraft is not picked up on radar until quite high, some times as high as 16,000 (CYXC). For example, if there is an aircraft wanting a clearance off cyxc to FL240 and there is an aircraft estimated to fly over at the same time at 15,000. ATC can only clear the departing aircraft to 14,000 with an "expect higher" departure plus 5 min. This is to make sure there is no loss of separation between the aircraft. Once the aircraft are proved to be not a conflict, the dep aircraft will get its flight planned alt.

[ahramin]

You are correct AuxBat. In the above example, while the 14 000 foot restriction is for traffic, the expect higher is for comm failure.

[pelmet]

[quote="Salty83"]sometimes it may be,

but in general practice in YVR ACC, its used to clear an aircraft off the ground to a usable altitude with traffic higher above that would conflict, we can't clear an aircraft to an altitude that another aircraft is at or climbing to above or near an airport, we have to give the ac an altitude that is lower so as to minmize conflictions and maintain separation. this is especially used in vancouver FIR due to the fact that at most of the airports, an aircraft is not picked up on radar until quite high, some times as high as 16,000 (CYXC). For example, if there is an aircraft wanting a clearance off cyxc to FL240 and there is an aircraft estimated to fly over at the same time at 15,000. ATC can only clear the departing aircraft to 14,000 with an "expect higher" departure plus 5 min. This is to make sure there is no loss of separation between the aircraft. Once the aircraft are proved to be not a conflict, the dep aircraft will get its flight planned alt.[/quote]

As far as I know, the expect higher is always for com failure purposes. You could have easily had the same separation in this case without the "expect higher" words thrown in. So there is a reason for throwing those words in. That is so the pilot can climb up higher in the event of a com failure.

[FamilyGuy]

The xpect higher time is always for comm fail purposes - whether the particular ATC involved knows it or not.

Whether the weather at point of departure is VFR or not shouldn't matter at all for ATC purposes. A metar at an airport is good for the airport only - airplanes move as does weather. It could be CAVOK at 2 airports 200nm apart - that doesn't mean its CAVOK in between. Controllers not assigning xpect higher times with less than 4000' of FP altitude aren't doing what they should.

If in doubt - ASK for a higher time.

[KAFUFO]

fuk them take the higher altitude when you feel like it.

easier to beg forgivness than ask permission

[grimey]

Yea, because that midair would look so good on your record.

[NewtonCentre]

MANOPS 431.1
Include one or more of the following items in an altitude assignment:

E. The time or location to expect higher altitude when it is not practicable to initially assign an operationally suitable altitude or flight level.

NOTE 431.1 E
The following may be considered operationally suitable altitudes or flight levels
A. in the low level air structure, the flight-planned altitude or an altitude as near as possible to the flight planned altitude, taking into consideration the aircraft’s route of flight; or
B. in the high level air structure, an altitude no more than 4,000 feel below the flight planned altitude.

However, if it is not practicable to assign the flight planned altitude and if the aircraft has not been informed when it may expect clearance to another altitude, it is the responsibility of the pilot to advise ATC if the assigned altitude will nt permit the aircraft to proceed to the airport of destination if a communication failure should occur.

To continue with CYXC as an example; If I have an Eastbound aircraft heading towards CYXC at 15,000 and an aircraft wants to depart CYXC Westbound and has flight-planned at FL240. I would give a clearance to the departing aircraft at 14,000 with NO expect higher time; Despite the fact that MANOPS tells me to. This is because, in the event of a comm failure, I don’t want the aircraft to climb into my Eastbound traffic. Sometimes there is no “time or location” that works unless I give a crazy time such as “expect further departure plus 30 minutes” which I would have to calculate as being the “meet time” plus 10 minutes. Of course, my plan is to get the departing aircraft on radar and us a radar separation of 5 miles so that I can give the aircraft higher and assure safety and separation. Also, I know that 14,000 is a safe altitude all the way to YVR, so if there is a comm failure, my hope would be that the pilot would remain at 14,000.

[AuxBatOn]

MANOPS 431.1
Include one or more of the following items in an altitude assignment:

E. The time or location to expect higher altitude when it is not practicable to initially assign an operationally suitable altitude or flight level.

NOTE 431.1 E
The following may be considered operationally suitable altitudes or flight levels
A. in the low level air structure, the flight-planned altitude or an altitude as near as possible to the flight planned altitude, taking into consideration the aircraft’s route of flight; or
B. in the high level air structure, an altitude no more than 4,000 feel below the flight planned altitude.

However, if it is not practicable to assign the flight planned altitude and if the aircraft has not been informed when it may expect clearance to another altitude, it is the responsibility of the pilot to advise ATC if the assigned altitude will nt permit the aircraft to proceed to the airport of destination if a communication failure should occur.

To continue with CYXC as an example; If I have an Eastbound aircraft heading towards CYXC at 15,000 and an aircraft wants to depart CYXC Westbound and has flight-planned at FL240. I would give a clearance to the departing aircraft at 14,000 with NO expect higher time; Despite the fact that MANOPS tells me to. This is because, in the event of a comm failure, I don’t want the aircraft to climb into my Eastbound traffic. Sometimes there is no “time or location” that works unless I give a crazy time such as “expect further departure plus 30 minutes” which I would have to calculate as being the “meet time” plus 10 minutes. Of course, my plan is to get the departing aircraft on radar and us a radar separation of 5 miles so that I can give the aircraft higher and assure safety and separation. Also, I know that 14,000 is a safe altitude all the way to YVR, so if there is a comm failure, my hope would be that the pilot would remain at 14,000.

It's a safe altitude until the pilot doesn't have enough fuel to finish the trip at that altitude. I'd give a expect higher clearance time just so you don't @#$! him over for fuel. If you cleared him at 14K with no Expect Higher he will climb anyways (I know I would...) because of fuel consideration. Hopefully, the pilot won't accept that clearance and ask you a expect higher clearance time.

AuxBatOn

[W0XOF]

To continue with CYXC as an example; If I have an Eastbound aircraft heading towards CYXC at 15,000 and an aircraft wants to depart CYXC Westbound and has flight-planned at FL240. I would give a clearance to the departing aircraft at 14,000 with NO expect higher time; Despite the fact that MANOPS tells me to. This is because, in the event of a comm failure, I don’t want the aircraft to climb into my Eastbound traffic. Sometimes there is no “time or location” that works unless I give a crazy time such as “expect further departure plus 30 minutes” which I would have to calculate as being the “meet time” plus 10 minutes. Of course, my plan is to get the departing aircraft on radar and us a radar separation of 5 miles so that I can give the aircraft higher and assure safety and separation. Also, I know that 14,000 is a safe altitude all the way to YVR, so if there is a comm failure, my hope would be that the pilot would remain at 14,000.[/quote]

It's a safe altitude until the pilot doesn't have enough fuel to finish the trip at that altitude. I'd give a expect higher clearance time just so you don't @#$! him over for fuel. If you cleared him at 14K with no Expect Higher he will climb anyways (I know I would...) because of fuel consideration. Hopefully, the pilot won't accept that clearance and ask you a expect higher clearance time.

AuxBatOn[/quote][/quote]

If he didn't accept that clearance, it might just be easier to leave him running on the ramp with an "unable cx at this time".

[AuxBatOn]

If I don't have the fuel I won't accept the clearance. And I will state why I refuse the clearance. If it pisses you off, then give me an expect higher clearance, because I will run out of fuel at that altitude.

[FamilyGuy]

Why is expect higher departure + 30 minutes ridiculous?????? On a 6+ hour flight (when it likely REALLY matters) 30 minutes really isn't that much time.

IF that's what it is THAT'S what it is! Much better than him having a comm failure 10 minutes after departure - waiting 10 minutes and THEN climbing right into the traffic you are trying to avoid don't ya think? Then it would be a "meat" time alright.

There's right and there's wrong. Just because that's the way "its done" doesnt make it either one.

[AuxBatOn]

I take off, I'm short on fuel already. Not every airplane are made for "long range". We have a ridiculous fuel burn at low altitude (30+ pounds a minute for a single engine) and we only carry 3600 pounds (and yes, that includes an external jug). If I don't have a Expect Further Clearance time I will climb because I will simply not make it. But normally, I'll make sure I get one on the ground.

AuxBatOn

[NewtonCentre]

It is always our assumption that the pilot wants to depart as soon as possible. The most expeditious way to get an aircraft off the ground, is to give a clearance to the lowest IFR altitude available and sort out the additional separational requirements (to get you higher) once you're in the air.

If I was to calculate a meet time and add ten minutes (familyguy) this would mean that I'd have to tell the FSS that I'd call them back, get my wiz wheel out and start some calculations based on the departure aircraft's expected rate of climb on depararture etc. Then I'd call back with the clearance. Is that what you as a pilot would prefer, or do you just want to get off the ground, to a safe altitude, and let us use RADAR to quickly accomodate your request? My example was a CYXC to CYVR, it's not 6 hours plus. Maybe if the aircarft was flying to Tokyo I would do things differently...

The fact is, we are very aware that aircraft want their flight planned altitudes, and we assign them expeditiously as soon as possible. Is anybody complaining that we don't?

My post was to explain, and answer the question as to why ATC sometimes does not assign an "expect higher" time. If we don't, it usually means that there is an aircaft 1,000 feet above the cleared altitude, possibly off radar, and that we plan to use other means once you depart to get you your flight planned altitude.

[AuxBatOn]

My post was to explain, and answer the question as to why ATC sometimes does not assign an "expect higher" time. If we don't, it usually means that there is an aircaft 1,000 feet above the cleared altitude, possibly off radar, and that we plan to use other means once you depart to get you your flight planned altitude.

So what do you expect us to do if we have a comm fail, clouds above and can't make it to destination with the altitude we were cleared at?