VAL vs. Bearskin

[Doc]

Interesting how both of these companies require pilots to pay money up front for jobs. We (myself included) are happy to dump all over VAL for this draconian practice, including some suggestions of actually "black balling" pilots (this issue, I'm against) who take these positions. Yet, Bearskin Airlines continues to use the same "buy your job" practice. Some are quick to point out that it's the pilot's own fault, due to "our" dishonest nature? Or, in the case of the Bear, It's Okay to "buy" your job? What a truck load of crap! While VAL has a much higher turn over rate than the Bear, and the Bear has a pretty good reputation as a place to work, it's really the same old song and dance routine. You still have to "pay" to get in. And I just feel that's wrong.
Bottom line? If you have to take money to an interview, you're BUYING your job.

[bob sacamano]

That time of the month again...Here we go...

[George Taylor]

Doc, both of these companies have a repayment schedule depending on the length of the agreement. Technically you are fully reimbursed with interest, and therefore have purchased nothing.
Why do you constantly bring this subject up? You’re not applying there, and anyone who is, is fully aware of the conditions of employment.

[Cat Driver]

Allow me to comment in Doc's place.

Doc, both of these companies have a repayment schedule depending on the length of the agreement. Technically you are fully reimbursed with interest, and therefore have purchased nothing.

B.S., if you are having to put cash up front you are paying to work.

Why do you constantly bring this subject up? You’re not applying there, and anyone who is, is fully aware of the conditions of employment.

I can't speak for Doc but personally I find paying to work to be bizzarre beyond belief. What else would anyone who is so desperate to get a job flying do that they will pay cash up front to keep their job, ignore all the rules of safety?

You’re not applying there, and anyone who is, is fully aware of the conditions of employment.

One does not have to be applying to these bottom feeders to have pride in a profession that used to have people in it that had principles.

But it is possible you may not be able to grasp that way of thinking.

[Wacko]

I can't believe I'm actually going to to say this... but I actually do agree with Cat! Here's why:

We in North America are probably the best example of this... but... time and time again you can see how one event, over time, changes our society. A good example of this is George Carlin with his "7 words you can't say on television". Are we REALLY better off with Bitch that and Shit this? I know what you're going to say... it's freedom of speech... well... we can also apply this to the bond... you have 2 companies doing this.... what if it catches on? What if a bunch of companies start taking money up front for work?

We have to be careful how things turn out because I for one would really hate to have to buy a A380 PPC in order to fly right seat... only to find out that I'm 37th in line after a bunch of guys who just finished school and were able to pay for that PPC right after school..... sounds unrealistic? That's how you get a job in the EU!

So yes... I do agree with Doc and Cat... people should be shamed for doing this... they should be shamed when applying for jobs after that as well.

[Cat Driver]

I can't believe I'm actually going to to say this... but I actually do agree with Cat!

Careful there, I don't have the vast exposure to life and aviation you have Wacko which means my opinions may not be really worth anything as far as flying goes.

[Phileas Fogg]

Well hopefully this 'bad publicity' is working cause they seem to be the main two companies who are always looking for people in the Jobs section.

[Cat Driver]

The sad part is there must be no end to willing victims that are desperate and dumb enough to buy jobs...

....what does that say about how professional this industry really is?

[Wacko]

There you go poking the bear again... do I have to start a thread to get you to stop posting on this forum!

[Doc]

Wacko, funny thing is, I've been sub chartered by the Bear on several occasions. I have nothing but respect for everyone I've ever dealt with there. The crews, dispatchers, ramp rats....everybody has always been nothing but professional. I've given their passengers the best service I am capable of giving. It's just their hiring practice (which I know I'll never change) I consider just bizarre, especially considering the professionalism I've witnessed on all other levels.

[Cat Driver]

There you go poking the bear again... do I have to start a thread to get you to stop posting on this forum!

You just might be on to something there Wacko, just look at how more informative and polite the flight training forum has become since I quit posting there.

Since I left they have been so polite to each other and it is just one big warm fuzzy of equal admiration for each others ideas.

You just never know how much better this whole Avcanada thing would be if all us old timers would quit posting and let the new age experts give everyone advice.

Yup you could be on to something for sure.

[NWONT]

I flew for the Bear back in the 70's and 80's. I also worked for them as an engineer. I was never asked to sign anything or to provide security for my training because I lived up to my word. I saw a few people who would receive their training and get their PPC and IFR updated, then disappear into the night to go work for another company that didn't have to invest a dime on them. I don't blame them one little bit for asking for a security deposit, if you live up to your side of the agreement you are out nothing. Why should these people invest thousands of dollars training some two-bit liar that had no intention whatsoever to stick around after he is trained. There were many new air services starting up during the 80's and they all wanted Bearskin pilots. They knew they were well trained and very skilled on instruments. If you are going to leave shortly after you become useful, then either you or your new employer can kick in for some of the expense. Also if you pulled your weight, and you wanted to borrow a company aircraft for personal use, that was also allowed. That lasted until one fool who didn't know how to manage his fuel system and ran out of gas with an Aztec and put it in the trees coming back from southern Ont. There was also free food for everyone that worked out of YTL, I'm talking tbone steaks an inch thick, anything you wanted, just phone your order to YXL and it would be on the next sched. That lasted until some fool unplugged the freezer so he could plug in his ghetto-blaster and didn't bother to plug it back in later. The ravens ate well that day. How much of this bullshit is enough. I don't blame them for demmanding accountability. OK Doc, go nuts, lets hear it.

[Doc]

ROTFLMFAO!! But, thanks for the history lesson. Not real relevant today though. Cheers

[NWONT]

You're welcome for the history lesson Doc. I know you've been having a tough time with the money up front concept. Just wanted you to know how it became about. Everything at Bearskin was once done with a handshake. Turned out there was very little integrity in some people. They once loaned me a Cessna 180 on floats as they weren't using it much. No deposit, no reciept, no nothing, they said we'll give you a call when we need it back. Well I kept it so long for free I decided to buy it from them. Would that ever happen at the your airservice? I still don't understand this business of " buying your job." That sounds like paying money and recieving a job, end of transaction. If someone wants a job that he is not presently qualified to have and he is giving his word to give a set amount of service to justify his employers investment and back it up with a security deposit. Then at the end of the term of employment, his debt has been paid off and both sides of the agreement have been honored, then it seems like a fair deal. The employer has a return on his investment and the employee is now more marketable in the industry. Cheers to you also.

[The Other Kind]

Then at the end of the term of employment, his debt has been paid off and both sides of the agreement have been honored, then it seems like a fair deal.

Talk to the Jetsgo pilots about that.....paying anything upfront or obtaining a loan is just plain stupid. I agree though, the scum suckers among the pilot group (you know who you are...) are just as guilty for this mess as the low-life operators that employ such tactics. Pilots who 'train and run' should be held in the same contempt as companies like VAL.

I have no problem signing an agreement with no cash changing hands. I stand by my word so signing a piece of paper really isn't a big deal to me.

[Doc]

I just can't see Bearskin having the "train and run" problem. Everybody has had some pilots head for the hills, but the Bear has a pretty good reputation. I can see guys sticking around there. I don't think it would hurt them to change their policy regarding up front payment. A simple "bond" agreement seems to work well for other companies. What makes it different for the Bear? Their current practice lumps them into the same pile as VAL.
Is part of the problem some misguided attempt to appear "fair" to the pilots who have already been sucked into buying their job?
Kind of like..."I bought my job, therefore you have to buy yours...."??

[The Other Kind]

I agree with you about the Bear Doc. I have no idea why they employ this tactic since it seems to be a great place to work. I was surprised when I first heard about their policy and quickly wrote them off as a potential employer. Funny thing, my career has progressed quite nicely, even without writing a few cheques to the boss... Take notes kiddies, you do not need to buy a job to advance your career.

[Wacko]

Then at the end of the term of employment, his debt has been paid off and both sides of the agreement have been honored, then it seems like a fair deal.

Talk to the Jetsgo pilots about that.....paying anything upfront or obtaining a loan is just plain stupid. I agree though, the scum suckers among the pilot group (you know who you are...) are just as guilty for this mess as the low-life operators that employ such tactics. Pilots who 'train and run' should be held in the same contempt as companies like VAL.

I have no problem signing an agreement with no cash changing hands. I stand by my word so signing a piece of paper really isn't a big deal to me.

... kind of got me thinking... what's the reverse of that? You have a pilot with 2xx amount of hours, 40+K of debt and possibly no other prospect for a company to get their money back? I mean... sure.. you can garnish a guy's wages... and over 10 years or so.... you might get your 5k back... but.... *shrug*

I do agree... it's easier to go after an individual than a company that's bankrupt....

I asked this before and someone mentioned that the company "secures" the loan... so if you are the pilot in my scenario.... the company would still be on the hook for the loan if you defaulted anyway... so... meh.

[Never Mind]

Smaller aviation companies(703 & 704) are a stepping stone. You know that and they know that. The companies in question, VAL and Bearskin, are businesses and have the objective to get a return on their investment. They are not an invention created to help budding pilots realize their dreams. They are there for the sole purpose to make money.

When an individual applies to companies like these he or she must approach the future prospect of employment with them with a sober attitude. The aspiring pilot must realize the implications of this business venture investing money into their training and should understand the responsibility and seriousness of the matter.

There's nothing wrong with training bonds. I'm not sure why this matter keeps resurfacing from time to time on AvCanada. I certainly don't mind people having their opinions. However, if a simple subject such as "The Training Bond" is a matter of contention then this clearly indicates why there are senseless wars in the world.

Never Mind

[Strega]

I wonder if "junior" had to pay $$$$ up front?

[185_guy]

This topic has been beat to a pulp, but what the heck.......

I disagree with a training bond, however as Cat mentioned a while back, it is probably to do with 'transferable' PPC's. Because someone can run off to another operation with the training courtesy of the bear or VAL, its easy to see why they want a 'security deposit' on your employment.

At the Bear, this money is PAID BACK IN FULL to you, with the interest the bank is charging you (however high) You are not out any money after the two year agreement. You could even make money from the bond. Im sure we all get those 1.99% interest rate for 6 months credit cards in the mail..............Your money is protected and would be refunded to you if they go tits up. If all this was not the case, then yes paying for a job is stupid. However, they want to make sure they are going to have their investment protected.

I did not want to put up a 'security deposit' for my job, but the 3 companies in town all require it in one form or another, moving is not an option right now and to some, drawing EI during the off season of float flying is bad, what's a guy to do!! Again, if it were not paid back in full with interest = buying something. Getting your $ back @10% interest = an investment for both parties!!

[Never Mind]

At the Bear, this money is PAID BACK IN FULL to you, with the interest the bank is charging you (however high) You are not out any money after the two year agreement. You could even make money from the bond... Your money is protected and would be refunded to you if they go tits up. If all this was not the case, then yes paying for a job is stupid. However, they want to make sure they are going to have their investment protected... Getting your $ back @10% interest = an investment for both parties!!

185_guy, you've said it quite well. It's refreshing to hear discernment behind someone's comments regarding this topic.

I wonder if "junior" had to pay $$$$ up front?

I had to pay nothing. There were no papers signed for a GIC. Just a 2 year training agreement.

Never Mind

[Cat Driver]

I disagree with a training bond, however as Cat mentioned a while back, it is probably to do with 'transferable' PPC's. Because someone can run off to another operation with the training courtesy of the bear or VAL, its easy to see why they want a 'security deposit' on your employment.

Exactly, the PPC was brought in about twenty or twenty five years ago.The PPC in and of it self can be argued as to its effectiveness and worth, however making it transferable was where the real problems for the operators came in, the pilots of course love the idea because they can get something of value from an employer and leave without having earned it.

The fact that pilots have to sign bonds and or pay money up front is directly related to another TCCA idea that was not well thought out.

Where you guys get the shaft is TC could care less about your best interests as their main interest is self serving.

While you have to put up with all kinds of crap that is totally unnecessary a TC employee can sodomize sheep in their cubicles and they only have to worry about not losing track of time and forget to leave when office hours end...or before if they feel like it.

So the answer is work for TCCA.

[bob sacamano]

Doc and his secret Bear fetish.

Cat and his TCCA love/hate relationship.

Mods, can we make this a sticky?

[Cat Driver]

Here is a serious question bob sacamano, considering the industry used to leave it up to the chief pilots to determine who they let fly their airplanes based on knowledge and flight testing by said chief pilots do you think the transferable PPC is better?