What Am I Obligated to Show TC

['effin hippie]

OK, I searched, but not that long.

Suppose I get ramped. What do I have to show TC? Paperwork, obviously. What else? Do I open the A/C up and let them sit in the front seat? Can they turn the master on? Can they perform a run-up? Where does one draw the line?

Does TC have 'probable cause' like the police? Can anyone delineate what I do and do not have to do for them?

ef

[joco]

Show but not let them take away your licence and medical, they can copy (on their money) if they want, cert of insurance, W&B, they can look at your secured/unsecured luggage. Make sure you have the a/c log book and the manual with you.

Since I rent, I would NOT let them operate anything on the a/c. They can ask permission from the club.

Oh ya.... ask them for identification, and if they only flash it at you, ask for it to be held out and read it properly, get the name of the TC inspector.

Does this answer your question?

[Hornblower]

8.7(1)
Subject to subsection (4), the Minister may

(a) enter, for the purposes of making inspections or audits relating to the enforcement of this Part, any aircraft, aerodrome or other aviation facility, any premises used for the design, manufacture, distribution, maintenance or installation of aeronautical products or any premises used by the Canadian Air Transport Security Authority, regardless of whether or not the inspection or audit relates to that place or to the person who possesses or controls it;

(a.1) remove any document or other thing from the place where the inspection or audit is being carried out for examination or, in the case of a document, copying;

(c) seize anything found in any place referred to in paragraph (a) or (b) that the Minister believes on reasonable grounds will afford evidence with respect to an offence under this Part

(d) detain any aircraft that the Minister believes on reasonable grounds is unsafe or is likely to be operated in an unsafe manner and take reasonable steps to ensure its continued detention.

[Hornblower]

and your better let them as well:

8.8 The owner or person who is in possession or control of a place that is inspected or audited under subsection 8.7(1), and every person who is found in the place, shall

(a) give the Minister all reasonable assistance to enable the Minister to carry out the inspection or audit and exercise any power conferred on the Minister by that subsection; and

(b) provide the Minister with any information relevant to the administration of this Act or the regulations, notices, orders, security measures or emergency directions made under this Part that the Minister may reasonably require

[CD]

You can also check out one of these discussions...

Ramp Checks
Another ramp check question
ramp checks illegal?

[trey kule]

Here is the short answer....nothing.

Let me explain. The charter of rights does not allow for any kind of detainment, search or seizure without cause.
The aeronautics act and the regulations (and they are just regulations) can not contravene the charter, but like a lot of other government regulations, they will be applied until there is a challange.

So , has no one challanged it. Yes. Did not get past the tribunal stage that I know of..I dont think TC wants to see this in Federal court. Just my opinion. But then there is the old.."if you have nothing to hide school...." people who are willing to surrender their rights..

But....if they ask you nicely, and you say yes...you have WAIVED YOUR RIGHTS

It all depends on whether you believe in the rights granted under the Canadian Charter of Rights, or you are willing to forgo them out of fear of reprisal, because you have nothing to hide, etc etc....

There is an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.....Be nice..keep all the details, ask them why they are asking and if they are asking without cause., walk away...if they threaten you make a word for word record of it in writing. Dont argue. Just walk away.

[Cat Driver]

There is an old saying that all it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.....Be nice..keep all the details, ask them why they are asking and if they are asking without cause., walk away...if they threaten you make a word for word record of it in writing. Dont argue. Just walk away.

You have the right to protect your rights.

However you should use common sense when doing so.

If I personally had an issue with or reason to suspect I was about to have an issue with a TC inspector I would ask one question.

Do you have reason to believe I have committed an offense and if so what offense?

If they will not answer that question I would walk away.

If they persist in continuing to challenge me I would hope for a witness to be present in any case I would write down their name and advise them I was bringing an harrassement charge against them and proceed to do so.

[Northern Skies]

Remember that any time you're getting an airplane ready, if someone is wandering around and asks you "hey, so are ya going flying?", the answer is NO!

[SRV]

Let me explain. The charter of rights does not allow for any kind of detainment, search or seizure without cause.
The aeronautics act and the regulations (and they are just regulations) can not contravene the charter, but like a lot of other government regulations, they will be applied until there is a challange.

A ramp check is just cause just as a roadside checkstop is just cause. The intent is to oversee public safety. The aeronautics act is law since it is "enacted" by parliament.

That's not to say TC should make a nuisance of themselves while we are trying to carry on business, they should be respectful and discreet.

Generally they'll ask for licence, medical, A/C doc's, OFP, load security, they may do a walk around but won't operate any equipment or touch any buttons but they could ask you to do it.

Just make sure your prepared at the start of the day and know where everything is. We pactice ramp checks in training once in a while to stay ahead of the curve.

[Doc]

SRV, a roadside spot check and a ramp check are worlds apart. First off, the roadside check is presided over by a "peace officer", a member of a Police service. The person getting checked is asked a few basic questions. Usually, "Have you had anything to drink....?" Answer "yes" to this question, and you have waived your rights. Answer "no" and the officer can go no further without probable cause (like the smell of decaying flesh permeating from your open window) and you continue on your happy way.
A ramp check is carried out by a Government employee on the pay roll of YOU. He is not an office of the law, and has no rights to detain you in any way. Best way to handle it is to politely say..."Sorry mate, got to run...." I like Cat's...."Do you have reason to believe...."

You should keep in mind a simple fact. If I climb aboard your aircraft, and really want to, I can find something wrong with something. And so could a TC inspector. If they really WANT to find something, they will. Deny them the chance to even look.

[SRV]

Doc

I don't say the two are the same other than that the intent is to oversee "public safety", which is just cause in either case.

You could argue that it's inappropriate for the police, also civil servants, to pull everyone over just to catch the 15% that are out on the street DWI.

The Aeronautics act does give any TC inspector legal rights. Not just civilian aviation but also marine, rail etc. They aren't peace keepers but if I denied one access to my ship or aircraft I better have alot of time to spare because your going to have alot of 'splainin to do to the police once they show up.

I'm not saying it's right but like you said, nothing to hide and you'll be waved on through.

My point is just if your safe then why worry.

[Cat Driver]

The Aeronautics act does give any TC inspector legal rights. Not just civilian aviation but also marine, rail etc. They aren't peace keepers but if I denied one access to my ship or aircraft I better have alot of time to spare because your going to have alot of 'splainin to do to the police once they show up.

How are they going to stop you from walking away and getting in your airplane if you want to?

By the time the police get there you are gone.

If they can not give you a reason to charge you when you ask them what law they believe you have broken how can they deny you the right to go about your business?

I'm not saying it's right but like you said, nothing to hide and you'll be waved on through.

My point is just if your safe then why worry.

Conversely if you have nothing to hide why should you waste time explaining it to some TCCA inspector?

And I would be very worried if one of them wanted to find something wrong....so I sure as hell wouldn't give them permission to do anything period.

And most important I would say nothing to them, because that is only going to give them something to keep asking questions.

[x-wind]

Just got ramped. I said I had pax waiting and they didn't hold me up. Asked to see the log book. - I said ok-. And that was it.

[Doc]

Jails are full of people who had (or thught they had) "nothing to hide..."
The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

[North Shore]

JBI, anything to add here? You went to that fancy-dancy law school in Nova Scotia, didn't you?

[Strega]

Let me explain. The charter of rights does not allow for any kind of detainment, search or seizure without cause.
The aeronautics act and the regulations (and they are just regulations) can not contravene the charter, but like a lot of other government regulations, they will be applied until there is a challange.

A ramp check is just cause just as a roadside checkstop is just cause. The intent is to oversee public safety. The aeronautics act is law since it is "enacted" by parliament.

That's not to say TC should make a nuisance of themselves while we are trying to carry on business, they should be respectful and discreet.

Generally they'll ask for licence, medical, A/C doc's, OFP, load security, they may do a walk around but won't operate any equipment or touch any buttons but they could ask you to do it.

Just make sure your prepared at the start of the day and know where everything is. We pactice ramp checks in training once in a while to stay ahead of the curve.

What is this country coming to?

[Bede]

Ramp checks are constitutional as they are considered "administrative searches". There is quite a bit of case law to back that up - unfortunataly. A cop cannot force you to open your trunk, but a government inspector can ask to search anything within their jurisdiction, but cannot detain. If I were ramped, I'd say have at her, but I have to go. Then I'd leave.

I know of a case where a company I worked for (Arctic Wings - agghhh), was charged with not providing documents and the federal court justice ruled that TC had to give reasonable time to prepare the documents. He ruled that TC cannot, walk into a company, demand documents and get them immediately.

[Cat Driver]

If I were ramped, I'd say have at her, but I have to go. Then I'd leave.

You would leave your own personal airplane to one or more TC inspectors who ramped you to examine inside and outside without you being present?

I am really surprised that you would give them permission to search without them having shown reasonable cause and a search warrant.

Would you allow them to search your clothes and do a cavity search on your body as well?

[C23flyer]

I think what he means there Cat is that he would leave with the plane as TC cannot detain.

[Hedley]

TC cannot, walk into a company, demand documents and get them immediately

Seems fair enough, because someone from a company
cannot walk into Transport, demand documents, and
get them immediately, either

The whole "produce documents" thing is bizarre. See,
Transport knows they issued you a document. You
know that Transport issued you a document. So,
why would Transport walk up to you and ask you to
prove that you know that they issued you a document?

They issued the document to you, after all. So,
they ought to know that you have it, since they
gave it to you, after all.

It's starting to feel like a Monty Python sketch ...

[SRV]

Well, for fear of beating a skunk with a dead fish, all I'm saying is it is what it is. If anyone has a concern over what TC can do, ask your Ops Manager or CP, call your POI, if private, call a GA Inspector and get it from the horses mouth.

Forum advice is so opinionated.

[Hedley]

Forum advice is so opinionated

No, it isn't.

Now, do I have to explain the above humour to anyone?

[Captain_Canuck]

Your middle finger

[Cat Driver]

f private, call a GA Inspector and get it from the horses mouth.

Forum advice is so opinionated.

Now there is the statement of the year.

Stellar idea, why get opinionated answers from this group when you can call a GA Inspector and get an opinionated answer from the source.

[eternalhold]

Ask for id and cooperate. Why make things harder than they need to be? Put yourself, in their shoes, and act the way you would like to be treated.

It is exactly like a police checkstop for the air. If you challenge the officer they will just keep you there longer and look that much harder for something you're doing wrong.

Show them the documents and that is usually the extent of it. If you're doing something wrong, then being difficult is not going to win you any favors. If you don't want to play they can find a reason to ground the aircraft and then your really aren't going anywhere, which nobody wants.

If an inspector starts giving you alot of grief, obey now and file a complaint. Because they will win in the sort term everytime.

Don't let one bad experience with TC sour you towards them all. The work for us, they're not going to leave, we may as well work with them.

hippie, my best advice is to go to the nearst TC office, say hi, and ask them. It's the whole help me help you concept.