Introductory flight

[FreedomTC]

Two days ago, went for introductory flight in 4 place aircraft. Did two stalls, skids and slides, two 60 degree bank turns for 360 degrees. Was put into control and was pretty well able to keep it steady (no real yaws, rolls etc). However, it took 2 days to loose the nausea. Just wondering if anyone else got this and got better over time.

[Airtids]

If this "instructor" was in my employ, it would be time for them to crank up the ol' resume! What you experienced was NOT an introductory flight; it was someones joyride done on your nickle. Look elsewhere...

[Hedley]

+1

This goes for ANYONE taking someone in the general
public up for their first flight. No stalls, spins or banks
in excess of 30 degrees, ok?

F_cking idiot instructor.

[FreedomTC]

Perhaps I should have also stated that I was asked up front if I wanted to try it. In truth, if I cannot handle those types of turns/banks/stalls I would rather know it up front that spend $xxxx.xx only to find out much later that I couldn't handle it.

In a real life bad flying situation one must get be able to get out of it or else. So, please don't blame the instructor. I think he did a fantastic job and gave me good food for thought.

My only question was and still is, do you get used to the sensations that at this point, makes me nauseated?

Thanks!

[Nappy]

Well, it pretty much always depends... from what i've seen, some people never could get away from it, others got used to the flying after a while and then had no more problems and some others eat certain foods, vitamins, water or whatever else could work for them... In my opinion, your best bet would be to ask an aviation doctor.

[iflyforpie]

I don't see a problem with doing those types of maneuvers (my disco consisted of a few steep turns and a stall) but with the consent of the passenger only and using a light touch.

Nausea does usually get better the more times you go up until you don't feel it anymore. It also depends on the person. I've had people up who were puking before the plane even left the ground. But I've also had just the opposite: non fliers who couldn't get enough of zero g or steep turns.

If you want to fly bad enough, you will get over the sensation unless you have a chronic condition.

[5x5]

but with the consent of the passenger

Absolutely not! How can someone who's never been in a small plane before know enough to give proper consent? If they do have the experience to judge, they don't need a discovery flight. Any advanced exercises or abrupt movements will tend to give a neophyte a sense of queasiness as they tend to be a little nervous just being in a light aircraft to begin with. It is totally inappropriate to give that kind of ride.

And I agree with Airtids that any instructor doing that should be looking for work.

F_cking idiot instructor.

+1

[MichaelP]

I don't think there's a blanket no go area for these fam flights...
But if there are two people riding in a 172 for a fam flight you should avoid doing anything that may upset the rear seat passenger even if the potential left seat student asks for certain things.
There's a different dynamic between the instructor and student and the student with a ride along friend.

I have done aerobatic flights with people who have not flown before. They asked for it!
But, you have to be careful to look at the newbie to see whether the face colour changes... I have only had two or three people get sick in an aeroplane during the whole of my 34 years, and only one when we were doing sort of aerobatics: wing-overs.

I've noted the sweat, the person wants to do more, but I say "no" and hand over control of the aeroplane... sometimes I get "I feel queezy..." and so I say "you fly the aeroplane!"... If the person is busy flying the aeroplane they rarely get sick.

Then there's the above, 'I want to see if I can cope with it'.
I've been airsick four times in my life, and even now I have times when I'm not 100%. Know your limitations for any one day.
1. Cessna 150 @ 6 hours total four spins... I'm sick!
2. Tiger Moth, seven turn spin, recovery at 400ft AGL, left a contrail!
3. Condor, doing steep turns when it was a hot summer's day and I was already feeling sick... Don't fly when you're already not well!
4. CAP10B, empty stomach, four hours sleep, been to a party in France and they know how to party!

So I have taught aerobatics most of my years in this business, sometimes I'm queezy, most times not!

Do not be averse to doing certain things with people when they ask for them, but make sure you qualify the person first and make a judgement call.
Almost no fam flights should include spinning, but it's alright for some.

[iflyforpie]

How can someone who's never been in a small plane before know enough to give proper consent?

Are you prone to motion sickness? Are you nervous? Oh you used to fly in your grandfather's plane and you are thinking about lessons! Oh you really like roller coasters!

I fly people who have never flown in a small plane before nearly every day. It all comes down to reading people, asking questions, and listening to answers. I've made a good chunk of tip money because I went outside the basic envelope doing perfectly legal and safe maneuvers. I also fly with some of the most timid fliers imaginable-that don't want to be in an aircraft period-yet many thank me for a smooth flight after landing.

Any advanced exercises or abrupt movements will tend to give a neophyte a sense of queasiness as they tend to be a little nervous just being in a light aircraft to begin with.

Who said anything about abrupt? A well executed steep turn will not throw anybody around and is sometimes necessary with the type of flying I do. A power off stall in a Cessna with a proper recovery is about as docile as flying through light turbulence.

A disco flight is usually a loss-leader for flight schools. You are supposed to be selling flying. If someone is looking for a thrill they will come away disappointed.

[Old Dog Flying]

That bloody instructor needs a a wake up call...Pack your bags kid! In 56 years of flying I've only had one person get airsick and it cost me a seat in the RCAF pilot program...London, Ont on a muggy hot summer day and a guy who had been partying the night before.

[767]

Im not sure why you were asked upfront. I believe this instructor was bored and just wanted to spend your money for his enjoyment.

Now, if you asked him first, then its fine to do whatever you want him to do because your the customer, as long as your happy.

[square]

Well if you think about it, almost no pilots at all ever get airsick. Yet, many of the flying public do get airsick. So since the pilots come from the general public, it stands to reason there's a very good chance you'll get over it through the course of familiarity with flying. It's important to look outside and know what the airplane is doing. This is the same reason people get car sick while reading, they're focusing on an object that is stationary, while their brain is telling them they are moving. The brain gets upset and tells the body to make a scene. It may be a biological response to food poisoning or something, get dizzy and . the cookies. Anyway, like I said, it's too early to tell before you know what you're doing in an airplane, but remember to look outside at the horizon next time. It's even easier on the stomach when you're flying it yourself.

[just curious]

Your instructor gave us food for thought. About how inexperienced he really is. Learning to fly should build on your learned experience. Before you are taught manoevers such as stalls, spins, steep turns, there is both lead-in training,and an on the ground brief so that you have a fair idea of what is being demonstrated, and why.

Childish things like that are what new air cadet pilots show their high school buddies on their first passenger flights, then grow out of.

If your instructor is reading this, let him know we think he is being an idiot.

JC

[airway]

From the Flight Instructor Guide:


Part II — The Ground and Air Instruction Syllabus — Exercise 1 — Familiarization


Objective

To introduce the student to the physical sensations of flight.

Motivation

As required.

Essential Background Knowledge

(1) Explain:

The purpose of the flight;
That there will be no formal instruction, but if the student wishes to handle the controls, an opportunity will be given when a suitable occasion arises;
Look-out — that the student should point out any aircraft seen.
(2) Answer any questions that the student may have about the familiarization flight.

Advice to Instructors

(1) Avoid going into detail which may confuse the student.

(2) Emphasize that this is a new experience. Procedures which seem very complicated at this time will become easier with continued exposure and use.

(3) Although it is not intended that there be any serious instruction at this time, the student should be allowed to handle the controls for some of the simple exercises.

(4) It is desirable on this flight that turbulent conditions, sudden attitude changes, steep angles of bank, etc., should be avoided as much as possible so as not to upset the student.

(5) This exercise should be enjoyable and leave the student with a sense of accomplishment.

Instruction and Student Practice

(1) Carry out a short familiarization flight.

(2) Point out easily identifiable local landmarks and indications of altitude, airspeed, etc. which may be of interest.

[iflyforpie]

Gosh I wonder if the Snowbirds or other Forces pilots follow these rules when taking journalists up for flights?

[tvguru]

Gosh I wonder if the Snowbirds or other Forces pilots follow these rules when taking journalists up for flights?

I wasn't under the impression that the Snowbirds provided flight training to aspiring pilots.

[AuxBatOn]

Gosh I wonder if the Snowbirds or other Forces pilots follow these rules when taking journalists up for flights?

I wasn't under the impression that the Snowbirds provided flight training to aspiring pilots.

Maybe not, but on my CH1 (very first flight) we did quite a bit of aeros! Loved it. Didn't make me a worst pilot....

AuxBatOn

[iflyforpie]

The Forces certainly do provide training to certain aspiring pilots and until recently it was done in the Tutor.

My point was these media flights fall under the same category. Non-fliers going for a flight where there can be the potential for something greater than 1.1 Gs and rate one turns. I remember reading a story a while ago how this journalist was thrilled when the demo pilot did a spontaneous roll before even warning her.

As I said before, it is not for everyone. That is why you qualify individuals first. Self-righteous pilots who say they would send a wayward instructor packing for maybe overdoing a couple of basic maneuvers should give their heads a shake. They've probably done it themselves.

[tvguru]

Since I only gave a sarcastic remark as noted by the . I figured I should include my humble opinion on the subject as well.

It has always been my belief that the intro flight was there to give the prospective student the feeling that "they can do this" not to show them all the maneuvers they will experience throughout their training.

I used to do my intro flights as followed:
For the takeoff itself I would usually give them control of the control column, with me shadowing their inputs of course. I'd tell them that I'll keep the plane straight with the peddles and when I tell them to I'd like them to apply a little back pressure to the controls. As we're climbing I'd tell them to put the nose a little higher or a little lower as needed, which usually only took one time saying as I wasn't looking for them to keep an exact speed or anything, just to keep the speed Vy or higher. When it came to leveling off I'd ask them to put the nose a little lower till the plane was level and tell then this is what we are looking for to keep the plane the same height above the ground. Then I'd take control and trim it for them and give back control. We'd fly for a bit enjoying the scenery, some turns, etc. On the way back to the airport I would remove a bit of power so that we'd slowly come back down and when we were near the airport I'd take control back for landing.

For some this too might be a little much for the first flight, you have to try and gauge it on only a few minutes of meeting the person. I found that the vast majority of students felt they had done everything but land and that a pilots license was an obtainable goal, many enrolled right there on the spot.

[MichaelP]

the peddles

?
How about pedals?
I suppose you are trying to sell flying, but why can't we be a little better when it comes to literacy...
Like 'hangar' and 'hanger' we should try to use correct language...

As written several times here, we should qualify the person and tailor the flight to their needs, and sometimes their desires.

It's important to teach the basic attitudes and movements, start with the basics:

[SkyWolfe]

I asked for scary things on my intro flight... does that count?

Is the nose down attitude in relation to the ground or?

[tvguru]

Could have been petals for all I care. As long as the point comes across.

[square]

How about pedals? why can't we be a little better when it comes to literacy...
Like 'hangar' and 'hanger' we should try to use correct language...

knob.

[x-wind]

Thats really ridiculous.

What kind of impression does this give you of flying and being a pilot? Probably the wrong one.

The nausea will get better with time, and understanding. Motion sickness has a lot to do with your mental perception. If your nervous, not understanding or scared your mind prompts your body to reject whats going on hence you feel ill.

Anyways, welcome to avcanada. How did you find this website?

[sissyphus]

I'll stand up for the unknown instructor.

When I would do intro flights, my first question was what did they want to accomplish? Intro to private pilot, commercial pilot wanna-be, or poops and giggles? I've had many people call up saying they want to have the poop scared out of them.

On these aforementioned flights, I'd work hard to make it seem a lot cooler than it was. Quickly placing the aircraft in a 30 bank with some back pressure can seem a hell of a lot exciting than a smooth 60 bank turn. If they want a thrill ride, i won't give them straight and level, but i'm not going to endanger myself for instructor pay.

Secondly, students are idiots. I've done some flights where we didn't surpass a rate 1 turn, and yet on the ground, the student was bragging about all the crazy stuff they did and how he's ready for miramar. Until you're familiar with what's going on, its all a drunken bar fight.

I'm not calling the original poster an idiot, but sticking up for a fellow instructor.

For the nausea, use ginger gum. It'll get better over time. Some people also experience increased activity in the anterior lobes of the brain, which are responsible for spacial orientation. It gives the experience of being high, this may be coupled or confused with nausea. Juggling can trigger the same areas of the brain.


Cheers