"Ladies and Gentlemen, this is your Captain Sleeping..."

[sky's the limit]

Snoozing pilots to return to work

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7635169.stm


Two commercial airline pilots who fell asleep in the cockpit and overshot their landing by 15 miles have been cleared to return to work.

Earlier this year, the Go! flight from Honolulu to Hilo cruised over its landing target at 21,000 feet.

Alarmed air traffic controllers tried to contact the cockpit a dozen times but got no response for 17 minutes.

The pilots were subsequently fired, but suspensions issued by the US aviation watchdog have now been served.

Officials feared for the safety of the 40 passengers on board when they got no response from the Hawaiian carrier's short-haul Flight 1002 on 13 February.

Some 44 minutes into what should have been a 45-minute flight, contact was finally established and the plane was ordered to return to land.

Sleep disorder

The US National Transportation Safety Board ruled in June that both pilots "unintentionally fell asleep".

Captain Scott Oltman was suspended for 60 days by the the US Federal Aviation Authority (FAA) for careless and reckless operation of an aircraft and for failing to maintain radio communications.

The FAA suspended First Officer Dillon Shepley for 45 days for careless and reckless operation of a plane.

Both suspensions were completed on 9 September, the FAA said.

After February's incident, Mr Oltman was diagnosed with "severe obstructive sleep apnea" which causes people to stop breathing repeatedly in their sleep, preventing a restful night.

No action was taken against the carrier because it was deemed to have acted within guidelines and had offered the two pilots sufficient rest-time between flights.

[Widow]

What was the other pilot's excuse for not getting enough rest?

Is it possible that it is a poor reflection on existing duty-time rules? It would seem so in light of the NTSB's recent outcry.

[Rockie]

What is completely missing in that article is a) how long was the continuous duty time on that day, b) what was their duty time in the previous 24 hours, c) what was their duty time in the previous 48 hours, d) what was their duty time in the previous 7 days.

For some reason people (mostly companies, the media and the regulator) seem to think pilots are superhuman beings who don't require sleep. Penalizing the pilots in this case is a total miscarriage of justice that places the blame in exactly the wrong place.

[sky's the limit]

What's missing here is a narrative of how extremely boring and mentally exhausting flying the same routes, straight and level, on autopilot, day in, and day out is. This is why pilots fall asleep. I used to all the time when I flew airplanes.

Edmonton - High Level - Edmonton X2? Zzzzzzzzzz (Well, Edmonton anywhere for that matter...)

5+hr legs through Central America?.... Double Zzzzzzzzzz



stl

[Hot Fuel]

It's not the regs, the regs call for 8 hours prone rest i.e. sleep. The responsibility to meet the standard falls on the individual. You could make them read 10 hours or even 12 hours, there will always be those that think sleep is over rated and report on 5 or 6 hours of sleep.

Straight and level, auto driving...a few hours and your bored to death! you have been paired with the same F/O all week so talking about the dancer, how shitty the company is and how the lousy meals are at the hotel has gotten old...zzzzzzzz

Duty time and duty rest are sort of like the horse and water thing...

[sky's the limit]

Straight and level, auto driving...a few hours and your bored to death! you have been paired with the same F/O all week so talking about the dancer, how shitty the company is and how the lousy meals are at the hotel has gotten old...zzzzzzzz

Lol, no. 90% of my IFR was single pilot, or with very religious co-joes.... So no stripper talk. Zzzzzz is right!

stl

[Rockie]

It's not the regs, the regs call for 8 hours prone rest i.e. sleep. The responsibility to meet the standard falls on the individual. You could make them read 10 hours or even 12 hours, there will always be those that think sleep is over rated and report on 5 or 6 hours of sleep.

Straight and level, auto driving...a few hours and your bored to death! you have been paired with the same F/O all week so talking about the dancer, how shitty the company is and how the lousy meals are at the hotel has gotten old...zzzzzzzz

Duty time and duty rest are sort of like the horse and water thing...

Yes, it's the regs. While it's true that what a crew member does on their crew rest is up to them, if they don't get the crew rest in the first place it's a moot point. And the argument is not about crew rest anyway, it's about duty time. Canada has stone age duty time regulations that make absolutely no allowance for human factors. Our regs are a disgrace.

[FamilyGuy]

Some 44 minutes into what should have been a 45-minute flight, contact was finally established and the plane was ordered to return to land.

44 minutes! They couldn't stay awake for 44 minutes!!!!

Does anyone really want to defend this?

[cyxe]

The reason the captain fell asleep was because he had severe obstructive sleep apnea. He could have been back seat with Patty Wagstaff during a performance and would have fallen asleep. FamilyGuy, people with that problem have trouble staying awake for minutes let alone 44 of them. I'm amazed it happened when it did and not sooner, like while he was driving to work and in that case almost certainly would have killed someone. I have the same question as Widow, what about the co pilot...

[New Flyer]

There is absolutely no excuse for either one of them. Bottom line, it was only a 45 min flight. If you cannot stay awake for 45 minutes, even if due to a medical condition, then you should not be flying. Period. The Captain should have taken himself off-line until the medical condition is treated. I read on a seperate site that the company was not fined as they had actually been off for 15 hours prior to the flight in question.
So again, no excuse for either one of them.

[Hot Fuel]

While I agree that the duty limits established in JARs are more in tune with ones body clock, pilots over there still close their eyes longer than they intended.

Put 20 pilots in a room and give them some adult refreshments. Tell a story about how you drifted off for a few minutes and it will be followed by 17 more that will have you either rolling on the floor laughing or learning a trick to set up an alarm on one type or another so you won't nap too long!

[fanspeed]

There is absolutely no excuse for either one of them. Bottom line, it was only a 45 min flight. If you cannot stay awake for 45 minutes, even if due to a medical condition, then you should not be flying. Period. The Captain should have taken himself off-line until the medical condition is treated. I read on a seperate site that the company was not fined as they had actually been off for 15 hours prior to the flight in question.
So again, no excuse for either one of them.

Read the article.

After February's incident, Mr Oltman was diagnosed with "severe obstructive sleep apnea" which causes people to stop breathing repeatedly in their sleep, preventing a restful night.

Could happen to anyone.

[crazyaviator]

I agree with Widow, sleep disorder, okay partial excuse, still should have self analysed and stayed on the ground ,,,however, male testosterone kicks in and the superman must do what he must do lol ! The co-pilot, after 15 hours off doesnt appear to have an excuse for a 45 min. flight ( 5 hour flight maybe , not 45 min )
No need to try defending these errors

[Tim]

There is absolutely no excuse for either one of them. Bottom line, it was only a 45 min flight. If you cannot stay awake for 45 minutes, even if due to a medical condition, then you should not be flying. Period. The Captain should have taken himself off-line until the medical condition is treated. I read on a seperate site that the company was not fined as they had actually been off for 15 hours prior to the flight in question.
So again, no excuse for either one of them.

What type of flying do you do that keeps you bright eyed and chipper when at the wheel? I highly doubt this experienced pilot showed up to fly knowing he was going to doze off. Hell, even after a great night sleep I find myself getting a little woozy at times. It depends on where you are in your circadian rhythm for starters, throw in all those factors mentioned like repetative routes, autopilot, nothing to talk about, boredom and the constant hum of the engines and human nature and biology kick in. Also the capt didn't KNOW he had sleep apnea, you can't figure it out on your own.

[HuD 91gt]

Most people with sleep apnea do not know they have it unless a family member, or S/O lets them know. It's quite possible the pilot did not know he had a problem at all, other then the fact he feels tired all the time. He may even think it is normal as he has probably lived his whole life this way.

[jetflightinstructor]

I usually ask my first officer or my captain if they want to sleep 5 minutes when I see their eyes closing repeatidly.

The answer is always NO!!!

On any kind of cruise flight (short haul) one pilot should have the right to sleep, if the other pilot is aware, and if the time limit has been established. Why not? Instead of, nobody is sleeping, or both are sleeping.

[Tim]

On any kind of cruise flight (short haul) one pilot should have the right to sleep, if the other pilot is aware, and if the time limit has been established. Why not? Instead of, nobody is sleeping, or both are sleeping.

Sounds like the smart thing to do. Work with human nature and biology instead of against it.

[sky's the limit]

What type of flying do you do that keeps you bright eyed and chipper when at the wheel?

Helicopters....

stl

[Chuck Ellsworth]

You have a wheel in your helicopter?

[sky's the limit]

You have a wheel in your helicopter?

Mmmm, no.

But I can attach some to the skids occasionally....

stl

[Four1oh]

Most people with sleep apnea do not know they have it unless a family member, or S/O lets them know. It's quite possible the pilot did not know he had a problem at all, other then the fact he feels tired all the time. He may even think it is normal as he has probably lived his whole life this way.

+1

[tired of the ground]

Duty rest and Duty time are all fantastic. The problem is that I don't know anyone who can be told to go to sleep RIGHT NOW at any time of the day and get 8 hours of good sleep and then be ready to go for 8,14,15 or 17 hours.

2 pilots on board and someone napping on in cruise when they get a little tired makes for safer pilots. If they had done that for the last 4 hours maybe one or both of those guys could have stayed awake.

[mduffy]

It may have been a factor that GO Airlines (Owned by Mesa) is based in Phoenix and often brings crews to Hawaii to work. I wonder where this crew was based, and whether or not they'd been deadheading accross the Pacific recently. It would be equally interesting to learn how many legs they had flow. 45 minutes would likely be the longest leg in their route network. I bet these guys have frequent 10 leg days.

[nacho]

What type of flying do you do that keeps you bright eyed and chipper when at the wheel?

Helicopters....

stl

Cropdusting.....

[tiny]

As long as you take turns its ok to sleep, you just have to plan ahead.

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... htm#720_23