Calling Prior to Entering an MF while IFR....?

[Doc]

Dumb question. Maybe. Why is IFR traffic required to contact FSS prior to entering the zone? Here is why I ask. FSS is passed IFR traffic by ATC. They know about IFR inbounds, and, in fact advise other traffic operating within, and entering their zone, of incoming IFR traffic. So, in short, everybody knows we're coming. The inbound IFR gets local altimeter settings etc. through ATC, and picks up the ATIS when available. So, what's the real purpose of the call? Other traffic can be handed to the inbound on "handoff" from ATC, which usually occurs WELL before entering the MF. This seems to be a particular waste of time when the inbound is IMC. I'm thinking a lot of radio chatter could be eliminated here?
Thoughts?

[Apache64_]

I totally agree with your thoughts on this Doc. It doesnt make much sense to have to make a report when they already have the information passed by ATC. It is a redundant call, but the only benefit you can get out of it is to pick up VFR traffic that you may not necessarily know about.

Cheers

Apache

[lilfssister]

VFR traffic
Update your ETA
Advise us of your planned approach
Updated ETA may allow us to keep vehicles on a contaminated runway longer
We can give you the most current NOTAM/RSC/RVR info
Not all MFs have ATIS
The CARs says you have to?

[altiplano]

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[AuxBatOn]

The 5 minutes call can be challenging to do or impossible to do. With 1 VHF radio, I'm tied with center at FL350 or whatever until they hand me over. It happened a few times center wouldn't let me go off frequency because they needed me there for descents. Flying at 600 kts groundspeed, 5 minutes is 50 NM out and I don't think center will clear us for the approach that far back, except if it's a calm day. In the regulations it does say that you may ask center to relay your information to the MF. If they can't, then you tried everything and you shouldn't be violated. If you are, you can defend yourself.

[sigmet77]

Really, 1 VHF, what type of a/c?
You call prior for all the reasons lilfssister listed plus the FSS will not pass you as traffic to anyone else until they have talked to you (exceptions occur). You may be separated IFR to IFR but until you call on the MF the VFR guys/gals more than likely don't know squat about you. Besides being required by CARs it is just good airmanship. Doc you are right it would cut down on communications but there are a lot of other ways that can be accomplished. Good question though, I never thought IFR pilots figured they were passed as traffic before talking to the FSS (again I leave it open that there are exceptions).

[Doc]

I'm a little surprised guys are at any flight level with only one VHF, but that's all that's legally required.
Lilfssister, VFR traffic can be passed on "hand off", which usually occurs well outside the zone. We're not actually "in" the zone till the FAF.
ETA's from center are pretty accurate.
We haven't always been given a specific approach from ATC, and most times, considering the direction we are inbound from, the wind etc. it's pretty obvious which approach we'll use?
Centre has already given us the "much needed" RSC, and updated wx. On this subject, some FSS people just give us the wind and altimeter. We have that. Either from ATC, or ATIS.
Doing something because CARS says you have to is not a good reason to tie up frequencies with totally necessary transmissions.

I know it'll never change. To change would admit that it's a totally redundant call.

[AuxBatOn]

Really, 1 VHF, what type of a/c?
You call prior for all the reasons lilfssister listed plus the FSS will not pass you as traffic to anyone else until they have talked to you (exceptions occur). You may be separated IFR to IFR but until you call on the MF the VFR guys/gals more than likely don't know squat about you. Besides being required by CARs it is just good airmanship. Doc you are right it would cut down on communications but there are a lot of other ways that can be accomplished. Good question though, I never thought IFR pilots figured they were passed as traffic before talking to the FSS (again I leave it open that there are exceptions).

Hawk. We have 1 VHF/UHF and 1 UHF radio. And sometimes the 5 min call simply won't happen because center won't hand us over. What are we supposed to do, just @#$! off his freq? I can see VFR traffic in vmc. I can't see IFR traffic in imc...

[Doc]

sig77, I hear IFR traffic passed all the time well before they've called the FSS guys. I'll monitor the MF frequently well before I check in. Very common that we have already been given as traffic....part of the reason I asked the question. FSS already knows we're coming, from what direction, and when. And since we are almost always handed over well before entering the zone.....why the call?
And it's not always good "airmanship" to call another frequency in the middle of carrying out an ATC clearance. I've frequently had FSS "walk all over" ATC's transmissions with very unnecessary traffic advisories. My feelings are, when we are with center, that's where our attention should be.

[lilfssister]

Doc I agree with you on a lot of points, but:

Particularly in bad weather, with only one person working at the FSS, the weather may have changed, the RSC may be updated, the Specialist is busy with vehicles or other aircraft, and the latest may not be available on either ATIS (if one is available) or from the ACC because we have not had time to send it out.

ETA: We have a rule that we tell vehicles to get off the runway 5 minutes before the estimated time of landing. ATC estimates are supposed to be to the fix serving the approach being used. If you use a different runway the ETL may be earlier or later than what the ACC has given us. The ACC does not have to give us updated estimates unless they have changed by more than 3 minutes (3 minutes or more? Those ones always messes me up!). We have a rule that we have to tell vehicles to get off the runway 5 minutes before the estimated time of landing. In bad weather, add the added minutes of your ETA, and the three minutes the ACC estimate may be out, that may be one more sweep by the vehicles before you get there. (or one less if you're earlier than the ACC estimate).

[Doc]

Funny thing is, from our end, bad weather should require the call even less. I do see you point though. But, weather requiring one more sweep by a vehicle is pretty rare. I'd just like to see this call, gone.
Then there's the dreaded "RSC". Almost that time of year again. Unless there's a blizzard happening at the airport right now, the RSC we got this morning will do just fine. I have never, ever made or changed a decision to land or not to land on a certain runway based on an "updated" RSC. Ever.
The latest RSC is always given to us by center. Then, the same thing is repeated to us by FSS. If we depart five minutes later....guess what? We get the RSC all over again. It's one thing I just HATE about flying in the winter. Personal "pet peeve".

[altiplano]

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[lilfssister]

I hear ya regarding the repetition of RSC's, Doc. I like the "Do you have the RSC from 1234Z?" approach, myself. (and we ARE required to make sure you have the most recent one...sorry).

You have the latest RSC that the ACC/ATIS has. It may NOT be the latest RSC, as I said before.

I HAVE had aircraft decide to hold for another sweep or two many times.

I've had aircraft change their landing runway due to a sudden change in the weather conditions that has not reached the ACC (or ATIS) yet. Sometimes that means somebody on the ground gets out, who wouldn't have if the inbound was on approach for the intially intended runway, before they changed to another approach.

If we all had ATIS, and two people on duty it wouldn't be so much of an issue, but unfortunately, we don't

[AuxBatOn]

Again, there is a difference between making you 5 min call a 2 min call and calling final. Given the circumstances, it's NOT always possible to make that call.

[lilfssister]

Again - there isn't always and FSS in an MF...

Yeah, I'm just jumping on the FSS bandwagon because Doc mentioned that FSS had the estimate from ATC in the original post

[lilfssister]

Again, there is a difference between making you 5 min call a 2 min call and calling final. Given the circumstances, it's NOT always possible to make that call.

Do you not have VHF and UHF? (Of course I don't know if all FSS have UHF... I do tho , which is why my mind went there right off the bat.)

[AuxBatOn]

I do have both, however, not every FSS has UHF. And sometimes, our UHF only radio is tied to the formation frequency when we fly more than 1 ship.

[lilfssister]

I do have both, however, not every FSS has UHF. And sometimes, our UHF only radio is tied to the formation frequency when we fly more than 1 ship.

Roger

[Dave T]

As a pilot in day to day flying this is the problem that I normally have. Guys don't want to get in trouble and miss the call so they are calling 15 minutes back from over 20,000 feet. The ETA they give the FSS is likely similar to the one centre already has and aside from telling them the runway we're planning the call isn't really getting much done but covering our butts and spilling onto other MF's that have the same freq. The FSS usually just want us to call closer in. So a call around 7 minutes back maybe instead? Well this is right during our approach checks and around the time centre is giving us either a hold or clearance, an approach clearance, or other instructions. So we're busy getting the plane ready and would prefer to both listen to the clearance we get from ATC. Then suddenly all that is done we're cleared for the approach, estimating in 4 minutes and we're in trouble we havn't called.

It will never happen but in the case of an MF with an FSS I would prefer to call when cleared for the approach. Centre or some system can give the FSS the ETA and maybe even let them know if we're in a hold overhead ect. Then when we are cleared for the approach it's a normal hand off and we work out local traffic.

Just a lonely pilots opinion lol.

[thatdaveguy]

This all spawns out of the midair over Sioux Lookout, if you want to read about the history.

[AuxBatOn]

I like this passage of the report :

The new Canadian Aviation Regulations, which are expected to come into force in 1996, change the reporting procedures for aircraft approaching an MF area. The pilot-in-command of a VFR aircraft will now be required, where circumstances permit, to call at least five minutes before entering the MF area. This change will give both arriving and departing aircraft more warning of conflicting traffic, and will effectively expand the radius of the MF area in accordance with an aircraft's speed; under these procedures, given the radius of the MF area and the ground speed of the Metro, the Bearskin flight would have been required to contact Sioux Lookout FSS at least 25 nm back from the airport.

When was that underlined part removed?

[CD]

Gee, and here I thought that it spawned out of the 737 crash at Cranbrook in '78:

Summary - Aircraft accident Boeing 737-275 C-FPWC Cranbrook Airport, BC (YXC) 11 FEB 1978
Full Report - Pacific Western Airlines, Boeing 737, C-FPWC, Cranbrook, B.C., 11 Februrary, 1978 - Report #H80001

[thatdaveguy]

Gee, and here I thought that it spawned out of the 737 crash at Cranbrook in '78:

Summary - Aircraft accident Boeing 737-275 C-FPWC Cranbrook Airport, BC (YXC) 11 FEB 1978
Full Report - Pacific Western Airlines, Boeing 737, C-FPWC, Cranbrook, B.C., 11 Februrary, 1978 - Report #H80001

sometimes it takes a long time for lessons to be learned

[Doc]

I've stopped calling the MF while still working center. So far, I've been handed off well outside the zone, and it's been no problem at all. I sometimes monitor the freq, and we have always been given as traffic when relevant. Again, no problems. I'm more convinced than ever that this call ties up the airways and causes distraction from center far more than it's worth. I'm staying with center till I'm handed off. Simple as that.

[looproll]

Well, that Cranbrook accident highlights the need to call FSS with an updated ETA. It's the law for a reason (42 dead people in that accident) and there have been many instances I've been with centre until nearly at the FAF, or about 2 minutes until touchdown. You do what you like. I will still be calling radio 5 mintues prior regardless.

Conclusions (Findings)
3.1 The estimated time of arrival of the aircraft a t Cranbrook,
caZcuZated by Calgary ATC, and used by Aeradio for advisory purposes
was considerabZy i n error and resutted i n a t r a f f i c conftict between
the arriving aircraft and a vehicte working on the runway.
3.2 The fZight crew did not report by th Skookwn beacon on finat
approach, as was the norma2 practice a t Cranbrook, thereby
aZZowing the incorrect ETA to remain undetected.
3.3 ReguZatory provisions concerning mandatory p i Zot position reporting
during instrument approaches were inadequate,

for some reason the l's are copying as Z's