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[rampking]

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[Doc]

I guess we all have to grab a buck where we can, eh? Next we'll have a course on "How to be subservient to your CAPTAIN..."
There are way too many "money grabs" in this industry as it stands now. Don't want to piss in your corn flakes, but that's the worst idea I've ever heard........

[rampking]

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[Rudy]

I don't think it's such a bad idea. Maybe the older guys have forgotten some of the challenges they faced as a new captain.

[ScudRunner]

Grab a Seat Boys this one might be good!

[rd1331]

Are you going to pay these pilots? If you are then I think even doc will agree that this is a great idea to pass knowledge down to the younger generation of pilots.

If you are choosing to design a program so that you can have cheap labor, then you are just doing a money grab. You may not be collecting cash from them, but you should be paying them normal wages. When I was CP the first thing I did with resumes for people that got hours at places like this was to rip there resume into squares and use them for a note pad. You know doing my part, and recycling. I still know many CPs that do the exact same thing. So for all you young girls and guys, you take a job working for people like the old regency and such, you just limited where you can get a job.

Let me know which you are doing, if you are paying them fair, industry average (which are already too low in my mind) wages then I will gladly help you out, and give you some Ideas, and may I mention good for you. If you aren't then, doc has you pegged, and all you are is a money grabbing thief.

Boys and girls there are lots of jobs out there, you Don't need to pay for time. And if you are working for free you are paying for time.

[chipmunk]

I learned the most about being a Captain from being a FO and observing the Captains I flew with. Those years of experience can't be replaced by a course.

[PopnChipper]

I am pretty new to this whole two crew thing, and I am an FO, BUT, I am of the opinion that your "Command Course" is every single day that you are flying with a Captain. The company I work for doesn't offer any kind of command and leadership training, you are expected to learn from the guys you fly with as you go along. No better training than that. Of course, if there were somebody who only had single pilot experience, and went straight to the left seat with SOPs and stuff like that, you might have something, but for guys already flying in the right seat, learn by example. You guys that are in the left seat, remember, we are watching you.

[trey kule]

I think that every company that operates a multiple crew aircraft should have a command course , as part of the CRM, for new Captains, and as a recurrent.

Not sure how Doc came to the conclusion that you were planning to offer a "command course" for profit.

So maybe lets start all over. What is the purpose of your course. for your company? And, if so is your company in the air taxi business/commuter/sched business or is it part of a training program. Give us some details and maybe we can help.

[rampking]

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[Chuck Ellsworth]

I learned the most about being a Captain from being a FO and observing the Captains I flew with. Those years of experience can't be replaced by a course

Exactly.

This reinventing the wheel and turning it into courses can be a slippery road unless you know what you are doing and don't stray far from how the airlines operate airplanes.

Then again I'm over 60, I'm bitter with the world and I spend to much time here on Avcanada .

The reason I'm bitter is I was such a failure as a pilot during my career.

Must have been a lack of courses.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

rampking you should continue with this thread and eventually you will get some good advice.

This is a tough crowd here and you need a thick skin to compete with them.

Facing challenges and persevering is all part of the ability to learn how to command an airplane.......

....so try again and I bet the gang will help you out.

[J Roc]

I'm with . on this one...if it's something you believe in than don't let a few negative remarks from this peanut gallery slow you down. A lot of people call "contrail aviation safety Ltd" a huge money grab but Mr.Humbeck makes a great living and more importantly he sold the idea to the right people; the oil companies.

I would suggest you try and sell this course directly to a company...kinda like a CRM type course. I'm just spit balling here, but maybe contact a few aviation insurance companies...ask them would the course you're planning provide insurance breaks to an operation. Try to sell that to an operation...."my course could save your operation money on insurance". Hey, maybe even contact aviation consultants such as "contrail" and ask if a course like yours could lower the contrail mins for an operation...if it could than I believe Calgary based ops would eat up your product.

Like I said, I'm just spit balling but I think you could be on to something.

Good luck!!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

There is a lot of experience lurking in this forum some of these pilots have flown for decades from the bi planes to the jets.

Don't lose sight of the simple fact that these people were using CRM and learned decision making in environments that were truly primitive long before it became the flavor of the month to use all those neat sounding acronyms to describe what is basically good airmanship.

Breaking out of a low overcast after an NDB approach with a wicked cross wind and landing a DC6 on an ice runway requires good CRM and decision making not to mention excellent hands and feet skills.....

.....so don't deprive yourself of those guys to help you in your efforts to fly safe.

[Doc]

Contrail....there's a great example of pumping sunshine up everybody's butt!

I don't think his "Command Course" would work. His skin isn't thick enough to leave the post up here. Step one in this industry....you've got to be able to take it from both sides. He couldn't.

I seriously think it's nothing more than an imaginative way to suck pilots into parting with their money. You guys didn't think he was going to run a course out of the goodness of his heart, did you?

You learn about being a captain by watching others. The good ones, and the bad ones, and making choices about how you want to turn out as a captain from their examples. You guys who think it's a classroom situation are dreaming in colour. What are you going to get? A check list of dos and don'ts from somebody standing in front of you in a classroom? Gee, I've sure got my cheque book in hand for that one.

A perfect example is pulling the original post when it picked up a little flack. Oh, what shall I do, oh captain, my captain?

[Ogee]

It's too bad this thread went the way it did, and maybe buddy that started it could have been a bit clearer as to what he was talking about.

I do think that it wouldn't hurt to have some organized method of bringing a pilot up to Captain status. I realize that is pretty general and could run off to anywhere, possibly with people who don't have a clue how to do it charging people money for courses. I have guy in right seat now that needs to be made ready for left seat. I am asking just what is the best way to produce a safe PIC out of this guy. I accept that a "course" might be helpful in that. I also accept that watching other captains work might be helpful, very helpful. And that an understanding of psychology wouldn't hurt either.

I don't think all the mindless abuse this bloke got was deserved at all. We don't know that he mightn't have come up with something pretty useful.

As for Doc, well, I don't really know who he is and I don't care. He strikes me as a guy who has either been kicked in the nuts too many times, or not enough. Hard to tell. But what I can tell him on this is that if he gets a chance to @#$! off, he should take it.

I'm sure I'm not the only one of that view.

[Sulako]

We rent office space from a much larger carrier, and they run command courses for all their fresh cappys, just down the hall from us. I think it's a great idea, especially for those who don't have much PIC yet at this stage of the game.

I missed the initial post so maybe I'm missing a lot of information, but in theory a command course isn't a bad thing. I mean, what if you have spent the last few years as an f/o with some crappy captain who doesn't like to teach, or worse, has a poor command style. A course like this might be a good way to get another perspective on life in the left seat.

//just sayin

[Ogee]

We rent office space from a much larger carrier, and they run command courses for all their fresh cappys, just down the hall from us. I think it's a great idea, especially for those who don't have much PIC yet at this stage of the game.

I missed the initial post so maybe I'm missing a lot of information, but in theory a command course isn't a bad thing. I mean, what if you have spent the last few years as an f/o with some crappy captain who doesn't like to teach, or worse, has a poor command style. A course like this might be a good way to get another perspective on life in the left seat.

//just sayin

Exactamente!

[Chuck Ellsworth]

possibly with people who don't have a clue how to do it charging people money for courses.

And therein lies the problem, because if you get someone designing these courses who do not have a solid background and a track record for knowing how to guide ( notice I said " guide " ) new pilots into how to become a good PIC then you run the risk of having goofy ideas and goofy procedures cemented into the industry...and God knows there is enough of that now.

But I hope rampking thinks about this some more and comes back and lets see where this goes.

Thanks Doc for taking some of the flack off me......it's comforting to know I'm not the only prick on Avcanada.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

In Europe we took annual courses designed to discuss and learn from others in how to make good decisions as a pilot.

These courses were used by the major airlines and were part of recurrent training.

There was a lot of repetitive human factors stuff in them and there was also a lot of well thought out workable CRM ideas that every pilot must understand and use if you want to be the best you can be.

Unfortunately nothing in life is perfect, if you have an assh.le with a pilot license who sits through these courses and nods his /her head yes, yes you can almost count on it they will revert to being an assh.le once they get back in an airplane.

[rampking]

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[trey kule]

Well, I for one was in on the intial implementation of this type of course with a company. The results were positive and dramatic.

There is no doubt that you can learn from watching and working with others. But there is value in such a course.

Here are some of the things I saw that were valuable.

1. The topic of leadership by example. Importance of things like proper dress, punctuality, honesty, briefings, SOP protocol etc. Common sense stuff? You would be surprised .

2. The responsibilities of a PIC. The expectation you should have of your crew AND their expectations of you.
Includes how to handle crew personality challanges. How to deal with problems that arise. (just as aside, questions of this nature arise in HR interviews all the time...the sense I got was that if you dont know the right answer you will never learn, and they just write you off.) Also, and this made a huge improvement, the need to not abuse your position (ie..offloading preflight duties etc),...ie taking advantage of you new position.

3. A lot of the Captain's role in sticking to SOP's, not fooling around in the plane etc.

The great part of this is that the new capt can then take their position and have a clear expectation of what their role is, not only in the cockpit, but with the company. Particularily in the young captains, the change can be remarkable, as it gives them a kind of basis to "score" their present capts...you would be surprised how quickly the old guys get on board.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

O.K. you came back.

So lets see where this goes, from reading your posts on Avcanada I take it you do not have much time as PIC in airline operations?

It's there to help better prepare the person in the transition from the right seat to the left....No doubt this type of course hasn't been around for a long time, but the Airlines all over the world are implementing them into there system...just like CRM was a few years back.......

Training pilots for the left seat in airline operations has been around forever, however standardization of these courses has been a good thing as recognized by the airline industry.

DOC it's no trouble to tell you have missed that boat.

Insulting Doc is not exactly the best way to display your own interpersonal skills, especially seeing as you are asking for advice from this group.

Anyways the post was deleted because I could care less to have an arguement over a course that has already proven itself.
It's there to help better prepare the person in the transition from the right seat to the left....No doubt this type of course hasn't been around for a long time, but the Airlines all over the world are implementing them into there system...just like CRM was a few years back.......

Well that attitude will discourage me from giving you any advice about CRM or any other advice that I may have to offer, because I am not really into dealing with people who hold their elders in such low esteem.

So if there is anyone with some ideas or somone who has completed the course please feel free to discuss.

Actually I have not only completed these courses I worked with one of Britian's largest companies in an advisory capacity that conducts said courses for the major airlines in Europe.

Insulting Doc and insinuating he is somehow deficient because of his age sort of turns me off rampking, I don't want to risk being put in the same boat as Doc because I'm older than him.


There I hope you can digest what I have written and think about it.

[rampking]

.,

Thats awesome I'd actually rather not read anymore of what you have to say as it is useless and to anyone else just feel free to PM me as this is getting rather retarded.

King

[Chuck Ellsworth]

.,

Thats awesome I'd actually rather not read anymore of what you have to say as it is useless

Great, lets hope someone else here can help you.