Hearback/Readback..... What??!

[Liquid Charlie]

Well the muscle memory brain fart -- haha -- he still thought he was going north bound - I heard a guy do a traffic advisory on arrival frequency -- now that was pretty funny certainly a couple of red faces as well.

[AuxBatOn]

cpl_atc, sometimes you're busy doing something else, you go from what you already know. It's not all easy and dandy in a cockpit. Plus, the radios aren't always the best and it's sometimes hard to understand what the controller says. It can get busy and when it does, errors like that may happen. That's also the responsability of the controller to make sure you read it back correctly and correct you if you didn't. The controller is the guy sitting at 1G, closer to sea level looking at the big picture. I did read back clearances wrong quite a few times, and the controller never picked it up, only to query me "Say heading XXXXXX?"

Often, when I'm not sure about a clearance, I'll read it back and have a little interrogative tone at the end.

[joe forty-sixpack]

Unless I'm mistaken, in the SCA the base of high level controlled airspace is FL180. If he was northbound depending on his position being cleared to 1-7 thousand might constitute being cleared out of high level controlled airspace. Sounds like he was cleared to 17 thousand while within controlled airspace, which could also be a clearance out of high level controlled airspace as well.

The catch all I guess is that CAR which states the text of a clearance must be read back unless it's a SID or if it's read back "electronically". Which one was that again?

[bob sacamano]

ABX: Winnipeg, ABX flight level 340 with Charlie.

Controller: ABX, runway 31, ATIS Charlie.

ABX: ABX has ATIS Charlie.

[CAL]

gotta love down in the states in busier environments..when you have a controller give a new freq to someone and you just hear some guy shout out see ya!....I am sure we are all guilty of it when things get busy...

[complexintentions]

This is a job for.....CAPTAIN TCAS!!



Here's my theory, because I've been there, anyone who's been flying for more than about 2 hours has. The clue is the fact it was a dead frequency. He didn't hear the clearance at all. He had his volume down, maybe he was talking on company on No 2. Because it was dead on the freq, when he transmitted he didn't step on anyone else. When he didn't hear anything back right away, he quickly realized his error, as usually our first instinct when ATC doesn't answer right away (in N. America anyway) is that we have mis-selected the com panel. So he brought the volume back up just in time to hear "...controlled airspace". So he took a leap and read back what he did. Wrong. But what the controller doesn't know is if he KNEW there was a big chance he was wrong. If he did, the drama is a bit overstated, and the biggest risk is to the guy sounding dumb.

I do agree that you should always remove all ambiguity you may have about a clearance and exercise discipline and professionalism. But truthfully this just sounds like another excuse to lecture pilots. I've heard controllers make the same mistake but never felt the need to remind them that this is wrong. I figured they already knew.

Trust no one and keep your own ass safe...maintain SA, look outside, and keep it welded to TA/RA. Even then it may not be enough but if it gets to that point then hey fate is the hunter...

[loadshed]

Often, when I'm not sure about a clearance, I'll read it back and have a little interrogative tone at the end.

This is highly subjective and greatly increases the chances of commiting an error with a clearance. If you're not sure about a clearance then CONFIRM it!

[AuxBatOn]

It always worked out. Usually, it's a part of the clearance I didn't get, rarely the whole thing. I won't get the controller to read back the whole thing for an altitude or a heading. At worst, I'll say 'confirm XXXX thousand on departure'. Always did it this way, never got into any trouble eighter on a checkride or in a real scenario... I hate comm jamming...

[polar one]

The sense I got is that the original post had a valid concern that we could all learn from.. It surprises me then, that so many of the posters want to offesr rationalles or just plain excuses for not doing their job properly. We will not learn if we can excuse improper behavior.

Instead of explaining about all the possibilities for why someone did this why not use this as a opprtunity to remind ourselves of the importance of listening, and THINKING when we are on the radio. It is all about communication.

[scrambled_legs]

cpl_atc... we all live in glass houses.

I've heard numerous controllers completely miss what a pilot said and take a stab at what they thought they said, only to be completely wrong... it may have even happened to me at one time.

You're coming across as though you're better than the pilot and belittling him by suggesting that there is no excuse for this. We've all been there, whether you're in a plane talking to company, co-pilot, flight attendant when you get the call, or in the center on the outside line, hotline or another frequency. There are many acceptable reasons for missing a call and we've all taken a stab at what we thought or figured the guy would have said, rather than asking them to say again. To preach down to the rest of us is quite frankly a little embarrassing.

[polar one]

Scrmabled eggs wrote:

I've heard numerous controllers completely miss what a pilot said and take a stab at what they thought they said, only to be completely wrong... it may have even happened to me at one time

Let me see then, If I understand your argument correctly. Controllers make mistakes, as we all do. But, rather than take a moment to ask ourselves if we can do a better job, we simply say...well they do it to...so its OK for me as a pilot to do it.

No question we all make mistakes. The difference is some of us try and learn from them, and from examples such as was originally posted here.
Others, it seems, like to minimize their mistakes by saying others do it too.

In the part of the country I work in, we seem to have a different relationship with ATC. A phone call to their manager, or form them, a phone call to the CP usually gets things cleared up..But, in having to have had many of these chats with pilots, I have never , not once, seen one improve who could find an excuse for their oopsie. The ones that improve and become even more professional are those that say..you are right. I goofed up. wont let it happen more than a few more times...and get on with it.

Perhaps you might want to give that a little thought . Posting that someone lives in a glass house, and that controllers make mistakes, in no way justifies pilots making mistakes. We all do. Professionals learn. Losers make excuses.

[AuxBatOn]

I think the problem was not admitting we make mistakes but more the way he came across blaming us making it look like he doesn't do any. No need to come here and blame people everytime a mistake is made. I'm sure that guy knew he made one. Shit happens, life goes on, both (the controller and the pilots) learned from it.

[niss]

That pilot should be tased.

[scrambled_legs]

I don't see how any pilot is going to improve after reading this post.

The pilot obviously thought that he heard enough to give a correct read back. Obviously he was wrong. I just don't see what the problem is though.

He didn't readback ABC123 roger. He readback the whole clearance and it was very clear that readback was incorrect and the controller corrected it. If everyone asked to say again unless they're 110% sure what the controller said, the frequency would be so tied up, no-one would get anything done.

It sounds to me like CPL_ATC needs to spend some time in the VFR world so he can appreciate how professional and competent the pilots are, that he talks to on a daily basis. Controllers saying things like the following, make me cringe.

don't multi-task to the extent that you can't even listen to ATC's response to your own request

Half-listening to ATC clearances and instructions might result in you filling the view out someone else's windscreen. So listen up.

I have flown plenty enough to know about radios and distractions, and neither are acceptable excuses for what transpired yesterday

The fact that you are not atpl_atc, makes me think that you haven't flown "plenty enough."

the rationalizations that appear here only serve to make it look like pilots are not responsible for paying attention.

If I pulled cpl_atc's tapes since the beginning of his career, I would most likely find a similar example to what he's talking about, only in reverse. The whole purpose of the readback is to catch incorrect comprehension of a clearance. This is a prime example of why it is used and how it works. I can't recall how many times a national carrier with similar idents, have responded to their companies clearance. I won't bitch about it though, because me missing the readback is just as bad as them missing the clearance... as I said, we all live in glass houses. No harm was done, redundancy once again saved the day. I'm sure the pilot's embarrassed and going to be less sure of what he heard next time so lets forget about this BS and get on with the flying.

[vrrotate]

I'm going to go out on a short limb here and say it was the copilot that made that radio call. Likely a new copilot. I'm sure the captain laughed at him/her and they learned something new. There are some pretty low time/inexperienced copilots keeping the right seat warm of many planes across Manitoba and North-Western Ontario right now. Relax a little.

[niss]

The last thing I need is a lecture from a VFR controller, thank you very much.

So the gospel according to cpl_atc is that VFR controllers are inferior to IFR?

Do you spit on the guy who fills your plane and tell him to get a real job too?

[polar one]

Niss wrote:

Do you spit on the guy who fills your plane and tell him to get a real job too?

Of course not. He is bigger than me And challanging someone on crack is dangerous. Besides he is still cranky about me boinking his wife.

Seriously though, I still think there was a lesson for us all in the first post. It is just to bad that it has deteriorated to the point ot taking personal shots at people. Emotions are a funny thing when we feel we are being criticized.

My thoughts after the original post was that it was not a bad time to remind myself to listen a little more carefully, and think about what was being said. And honestly my old ears have trouble listening to some controllers who talk about 20x faster than I listen. I also have trouble trying to get a handle on situational awareness in uncontrolled airspace when pilots read back clearances at about 30x faster than anyone can listen. Not sure why some pilots and controllers feel the need to impress people with speed talk when it is unnecessary (unnecessary being the key word here, even if it is not spelled correctly)

All one has to do is spend some time flying in the north at uncontrolled airports to hear the terrible radio work that goes on.
The best one lately was a pilot that continually was reporting they were at the "top of the descent". Over and over
Damned if I know what that really means. Pilots calling final when they are on base, because they have caused a problem with an incorrect ETA.. The list goes on, and I am not immune to these goof ups either.

The real problem is that , for many, dismissing poor radio work , excusing it for some reason, or considering it not important all lead to an attitude that resists improvement. But as a wise old wing commander once told me....you point out an error to a good pilot and they make the changes. You point out an error to a poor pilot and they make excuses...no point in going farther with them as they simply will never get better.

With that , I think this thread has deteriorated to the point where nothing more productive is going to come from it. to bad, it was a good effort, even if it was not worded in the best way .

[scrambled_legs]

cpl_atc...

I don't know where to start. You got your commercial licence and maybe even an IFR ticket with a couple of hours in a HO if that, and you suddenly think you know better than everyone. Someone missed a clearance but obviously thought they never, and readback a completely bogus clearance. I don't know where you came to the conclusion that it was just some anonymous assumption. It happens to the best of us... yes even you.

I love how you keep dismissing the fact that you're talking down to the pilots when a 2 year old could read between your lines and come to that conclusion. You think it's ridiculous for a pilot to miss a clearance immediately after asking for it, because you spent a few hours getting paid to sit behind a yoke.

You then go on to say that a VFR controller has no valuable input???

You were pretty quick to develop the GOD complex in the center hey? I bet I've logged a lot more hours in the muck then you have and have a way better idea of what goes on in the cockpit of an actual complex aircraft and have a pretty good concept about IFR operations. So how about we hold the attitude and maybe agree that there's a reason for IFR pilots to have to readback clearances and that this little scenario is a prime example of why and how it works. You've beat the poor pilot to do death over one missed call, so how about we move on.

[Soixante-Neuf]

.

[scrambled_legs]

The whole point of this is, in most of the posts I've ever read from this guy, all I think to myself is, "Man, he really needs to get laid."

Hahahahaha... you better hope he gets laid before he reads that!!!

I was thinking the same thing.

[complexintentions]

cpl_atc,

No one is offering possible explanations for WHY this guy read back a wrong clearance as a way to try and excuse his doing so. You just sounded so OUTRAGED, so SHOCKED, like a little old lady discussing the clap, that I thought I would try and give you the benefit of at least a possible theory of the event that so shattered your world. Never did I or anyone say he did the right thing, or a smart thing.

But your big tantrum about "DON'T INVENT READBACKS. EVER." is sort of like me shouting at you "DON'T EVER VECTOR US INTO TERRAIN. EVER." This controller error has happened as well, yet I hardly think safety will be enhanced by exhorting controllers to please um, don't ever do it. I think we all know when something is wrong, and clearly inventing a readback is wrong, which is why your pedantry is boring and your motives suspect. In combination with your thinly-disguised attempts to somehow place yourself above pilots in general that have been widely recognized by more than a few posters. Just so you know, it does NOTHING to:

-Improve flight safety,
-Improve pilot-controller relations,
-Improve anyone's opinion of you.

Relax, be glad the system worked, and worry about the log in your own eye before pointing out the splinters in everyone else's.

[Notta Simfalt]

Hey CPL
Lighten up dude. A few months ago, we got a company memo responding to a request from atc for us to watch our radio procedures and a "zero tolerance" policy to be in effect in central Canada. OK, we really have tried to be better, but I've noticed atc making errors as well. We know you guys have other stuff on the go too, so let's just try to play nice.

[Liquid Charlie]

Is 17,000 feet in the area he was in controlled or uncontrolled airspace -- if it is uncontrolled - no fowl -- I have been cleared numerous times to maintain an altitude in controlled airspace and the entire flight is conducted in uncontrolled airspace. Since you can't get a clearance in uncontrolled airspace but controllers feel since you are IFR some sort of clearance must be issued we were always getting clearances issued where none were required.

In the initial post as far as I'm concerned the controller is as much at fault as the pilot since a read back is required for the controller to verify the clearance and if does not pick up on the mistake both parties are culpable.

[BuckNiner]

cpl_atc you have obviously demonstrated that you have NEVER been in a busy cockpit before. Yeah I know when you got your CPL you probably thought you knew everything there was to know about aviation. Errors sometimes happen and it's up to all of us to work together to ensure they happen as infrequently as possible. If you're going to get so self righteous about somebody making an incorrect readback then you should stay the hell out of a real airplane because worse errors have and will happen in the future. I'd really appreciate it if you could just relax, go have another coffee while you're looking out the window today and dream about how you're going to demonstrate your superior radio skills in your rented 172 this weekend.

[scrambled_legs]

Murray, I think the Capitanos are the ones that are relaxed here. Here's a good quote regarding Mr. cpl_atc's other post about the same issue in the much nicer thread under the ATC forum.

Pilots will do what they read back

I sure hope you don't believe that!!! I have sat beside pilots over the years who have read back a clearance and then done something else. Sometimes what was read back was an echo of the clearance transmitted but not what was done. Sometimes what was read back was not at all in line with the original clearance but what was done was actually in keeping with the original clearance.

Human behavior, ain't it grand!

The problem here is that cpl_atc and yourself figure that the pilot knew he wasn't sure what clearance he was given and guessed at it. Did he tell cpl that he wasn't sure so he took a stab at it? Did he say, "Sorry sir, whenever I'm told something and don't hear it, I just guess at what I think my clearance would have been"? Or is it just cpl_atc that is assuming that this is a fact?

If you've ever been in a busy cockpit and you're busy thinking in three different directions, you will sometimes make mistakes. Kinda like when you're in the garage with your head under the car and the wife says something and you reply with a totally bogus answer. You were distracted and although you thought you heard correctly, you obviously never. He may have thought he heard the full clearance, but obviously he never. For CPL_ATC to take the stance that he intentionally invented a clearance, is BS. I don't know of any pilot in the Flight Levels that would do this. He then went on a little tantrum about how there is no excuse for this and how he is God, uncapable of such mistakes and better than pilots and tower controllers. The guy needs to get laid not defended!!!