Cry me a river...

[Big Pratt]

http://gmfactsandfiction.com/

Sooo.... You build substandard, unreliable crap for decades by an overpaid and unionized "I don't give a shit" workforce and when reality finally catches up with your business model, you go crying to the government....

I wonder how long will that 25B freebie... I mean loan... delay the inevitable flatline.

BP

PS I love how they played the patriotic card by throwing in the military manufacturing capability.

[Invertago]

Loving my Honda

[Changes in Latitudes]

It seems to be that they're behind the 8 ball because most foreign companies go a few steps further to support their homegrown automotive products. That's tough to compete with. At the same time, they haven't helped matters much. Unions have destroyed what once was a thriving american auto industry and I have no doubt that they need to streamline and clean up their acts as well, but we can't just have them up and leave.

I support some sort of bail-out maneuver here. How much or to what extent, that's a different story.

[Rockie]

They're behind the 8-ball because they build gas guzzling, unreliable, poor quality crap as opposed to the cars that people are actually buying. There is more than enough blame to go around and it can't be laid on the doorstep of any one group either. Union/worker entitlement and crappy work ethic, and incompetent senior management that can't see the writing that's been on the wall for many years now are jointly responsible. So is a society in denial that loves their "big is better" Americanism even while they buy smaller, better built foreign cars.

It is telling that Toyota and Honda, both of which build cars in Canada and employ many people, do not need or want any government money. But they are still in favour of giving their mentally retarded American competitors money because they think it's the only way to ensure their own supply chain.

[niss]

I love my '99 325K Silverado....

[BigB]

I say let them sink. Chapter 11, or if need be Chapter 7.

Time to cull some of the herd.

[bmc]

Reminds me a bit of the end of the English era of car production.

The impact on the US economy will be staggering, seriously staggering, if they let them fail.

This is not good folks.

[Wilbur]

A lot of the problem with big corps like the car makers is their corporate governence model. GM, for example, is being financially killed by its very lucrative defined benefit pension plan that includes benefits like very expensive medical insurance. Corp executives will agree to enriched pension benefits in the future in exchange for lower wage demands today. That makes the balance sheet in the near term look very good, they collect huge performance bonuses, and then move on. 10 or 15 years later when the baby boomers start retiring in large numbers, the costs of those pension benefits are accrued and the company can't pay the bill. A number I recently heard was that about 30% of a new car's cost goes to cover just medical benefits.

[BigB]

.... A number I recently heard was that about 30% of a new car's cost goes to cover just medical benefits.

Interesting article. A bit dated (2006), but still relevant. UAW members may lose their jobs, but at least they'll be happy at home.

GM Spends $17 Million Per Year on Viagra:
http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2 ... iagra.html

[Big Pratt]

The impact on the US economy will be staggering, seriously staggering, if they let them fail.

Yes, it will be big, maybe not huge, but big. I still think they should let them fail.
The difference between this and their other manufacturing sectors is that their car industry is hugely consolidated into the 3 major companies and a dozen or so main suppliers. This means that the change would be sudden as opposed to gradual as happened with the thousands of small clothing, electronics, and shippable consumer goods companies that moved manufacturing overseas in a slow and gradual migration since the mid 70's.
Walmart is China's #8 trade partner. Yes that includes countries. In 2004 they hit 18B USD.

I feel almost sorry about the blue collars who thought that the company would care for them forever with health benefits and adjusted pentions. But hey, that's life, they should've thought of it before and planned their retirements themselves.

Niss, had you owned a Tundra or a Titan, you'd think differently.
I really enjoy my 290k beater camry and the toy lexus.
What have I done to the camry in all those miles? Brakes, timing belt and an oxygen sensor.
Lexus is still fairly new and all it's ever needed was oil changes.

Don't talk to me about the taurus I had in the 90's...
Ford deserves to be shut down.

Now crank up the speakers and sing along!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9vou4qUu5YY


BP

[niss]

My dad owns a titan and loves it, I love his truck too, but I also love mine, which has gone had pretty minimal work compared to other fleet trucks we have.

[iflyforpie]

Hmm...haven't we seen this before?

A stagnant economy, an unstable energy market, and an unproductive overpaid unionized workforce kiying that their poor quality ponderous gas guzzlers aren't selling so they need money to bail them out?

Wonder when the new K-Cars are going to hit the showroom?

After owning GM cars for years I've been cured and will never buy a North American brand again. Even Hyundai puts out a better product now than the Big Three.

[fleet16b]

I don't have much sympathy either.
How can the big three cry that it is impossible to build cars in N. America without using offshore sources, when Toyota and Honda are coming here and doing just fine . The big three need to open their eye and get real.
In 2002 I bought the Olds Alero brand new. What a piece of crap !!!
Myself , my sister and 3 guys at work all bought it . Everyone had to have the front wheel bearings replaced twice in the first year.
The following year we all did it once again.
Going into the third year, I replaced them once again, this time because of miles they were no longer under warrenty.
Finally the same year at around 140k the head went and the timeing and cat converter
In the last 2 month I owned the car it cost me 3k in repairs.
I finally said f%$k it and went decided to a used Honda CRV.
It had 29k on it and now has over 160k. The only thing I did was put brakes on it. Totally reliable .
The olds dealer called me with a promotional gig and tried to get me to buy from them again. In no uncertain terms I told him what I thought of his product , what I had just bought and that he could go get stuffed.

[iflyforpie]

Yeah that's what I am getting next, a nice used CRV.

[fleet16b]

In 1985 I bought the Honda Prelude. It was a very reliable car and I never ever had a problem with it.
Since then I have driven mostly N.A. vehicle that I either owned or were supplied by employers. The vast majority of those cars were crap.
Before buying the CRV, i spoke with many CRV owners. Most of them were on their second or third one and totaly happy with them.
That was better than any consumers report as far as I was concerned.( I did read consumers and they gave the CRV a glowing report).

The crv is excellent fo tranporting the family , the dogs and for supporting my a/c. It has a removable fold out camp table that works just perfect as a portable work bench when servicing my airplane.

[Hedley]

The writing was on the wall in 1979, when my family bought
a very nice silver 1979 Honda Accord for my mother to drive.

Keep in mind that my uncle was a Chev/Olds/Cadillac dealer
in King City at the time, so we didn't exactly pay a lot of
markup on GM stuff!

The 1979 Honda Accord was a far better car for a far
better price than anything GM made. Alarm bells should
have gone off in Detroit.

That's thirty years that's gone by. And what's been
done in that time? Well, a lot of large, gas-guzzling
trucks, SUVs and hummers have been built. And
GM still can't build a car as good as a 1979 Honda
Accord. Pretty sad.

I think Honda is japanese for "maintenance is
optional".

[niss]

Ya but Hedley, wasn't your first car a brand new Model T right off the lot?

[Hedley]

You're thinking of Cat Driver

My first car was a (gasp!) 1970 Camaro. Remember,
my uncle was a GM dealer?

It was a hoot. 300 hp 350 smallblock, 4 barrel carburetor.
It would fry the skinny tires we had back then like a bbq.

Looked a lot like this:

[Invertago]

If the big three go under, the factories are still there, the work force is still there for a while, people will still need cars. The name will go but someone else will start building cars there with a different label... Maybe your new Prius will be built at a Silverado plant by non-unionized former GM employees.

[Driving Rain]

If only it was about vehicals at GM. GMAC is the 4th largest BANK in the US and ranks in the top ten in the world. It's not really about making vehicals as such it's, about moving money from one magic bubble to the next so the top dogs can earn dividends. This is what happens when you lend money to people to sell them cars when they have no hope/chance of ever paying you back. So you sell off the bad debt to some high risk outfit and tell your shareholders.... "Look how many cars we sold!" Now if only they would pay for them.
Thanks to bank corporate greed no one in the States can afford to buy a vehical because there is no money.
Lets face it they cut off their nose to spite their face ... and it worked.
GM, Ford and MBC make fine products, to bad they don't know how to handle money. That's not a union problem but goes straight to corporate greed.
http://www.allbusiness.com/finance/3595744-1.html

[Invertago]

Well, I can't say as I agree that the big 3 make fine cars, at least not in the late 90's early 2000. But that is interesting, never thought that those same people that bought houses they can't afford also would have bought cars they can't pay back... The economies of greed lol, now we can all pay for their mistake. For the record, I've never missed a payment... and I'm a pilot!

[albertdesalvo]

Ok, so I have an 88' Chevy pickup that's driven pretty much daily. Clock just turned 312,000 and it runs like a Swiss watch. I would have no hesitation at all if I needed to drive it from Georgian Bay to Fort Simpson tomorrow. Quick oil change and go. Last summer I replaced the alternator..... damn, the original Delco only lasted 19 years. It was still charging just fine but the bearings were squealing. I would take a Chevy pickup over a Toyota any day of the week.

The quality gap between domestic autos and imports is a myth. Honda & Toyota have built plenty of shitboxes, and Chevy and Ford have built plenty of bulletproof cars. I could go on with my experiences, but I hope the point is made.

[. ._]

I love the salaries these guys are making.

I could run a company into the ditch on one tenth of what they're making.

-istp

[Invertago]

I love the salaries these guys are making.

I could run a company into the ditch on one tenth of what they're making.

-istp

You could manage Big Red

[Rockie]

Ok, so I have an 88' Chevy pickup that's driven pretty much daily. Clock just turned 312,000 and it runs like a Swiss watch. I would have no hesitation at all if I needed to drive it from Georgian Bay to Fort Simpson tomorrow. Quick oil change and go. Last summer I replaced the alternator..... damn, the original Delco only lasted 19 years. It was still charging just fine but the bearings were squealing. I would take a Chevy pickup over a Toyota any day of the week.

The quality gap between domestic autos and imports is a myth. Honda & Toyota have built plenty of shitboxes, and Chevy and Ford have built plenty of bulletproof cars. I could go on with my experiences, but I hope the point is made.

Consider yourself one of the very few, very lucky ones. If the quality gap was a myth Honda and Toyota wouldn't have eaten Detroit's lunch for the past 3 decades. You can get a big three piece of crap pretty cheap and with almost no financing costs. Compare that to Honda which is more expensive and has always been able to charge interest because their cars are actually in demand. Why do you suppose that is?