Good Move?

[taffer]

Just looking for a little advice and opinions.

Im an FO at Jazz, been here 1 year. I enjoy the job and have a good schedule. Got +2500hrs right now with lots of multi-turbine and 500 jet. Im lacking in PIC time though (<700, all single-piston).

Due to all the instability facing the industry now, Ive been thinking about applying to Porter or maybe even Georgian. I worry about losing my job at jazz a lot and the instability with contract negotiations here is really eating away at me. I would hate to have to start over from the bottom at another company and go through training all over again, but if it means Ill have a stable and good job, then I think it may be worth it. The benefit of going somewhere like Porter or GGN are the shorter upgrade times compared to Jazz, and they don't tend to lay off as AC and Jazz (and dont have contract negotiations coming up either).

Do you guys think its smart to make a move like this? Long term Id like to be somewhere like AC, aT or Skyservice. Im in no rush to get there though. I love the flying I do at Jazz, but I just worry about the long-term prospects. Im single, late 20's, no kids, debt-free.

I appreciate any feedback.

[Invertago]

Stay at Jazz, buy your self a little taylor craft and take girls for rides in it. Tell them you are a airline pilot. Soon you will have solved the PIC time, and you may manage to change the "late 20's, no kids, debt-free." into early 30's, 2 kids and a morgage.

But seriously, I'd keep the seat you have till the economy sorts itself out. I'd trade some PIC time for your turbine multi There are lots of guys flying little pistons around that would love to take your Jazz seat. Ever think of instructing on your time off? Easy PIC builder on the side.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Do you guys think its smart to make a move like this? Long term Id like to be somewhere like AC, aT or Skyservice. Im in no rush to get there though. I love the flying I do at Jazz, but I just worry about the long-term prospects. Im single, late 20's, no kids, debt-free.

Stay put! You're happy, don't mess with anything. Enjoy the lifestyle, use the travel, and keep flying. I know the grass always appears greener elsewhere, but don't mess with a good thing, bro!

[mattedfred]

make a pros and cons list for ACJ, GGN and Porter

draft a worst case scenario for each as well

consider applying and go for the interview even if you haven't decided yet as it may help you to rule out either or both

you didn't get laid off from ACJ and you aren't going to in my opinion

the upcoming contract negots at ACJ may have an effect on GGN flying

this is the first of many downturns that you will be forced to ride out in your career

try and make an informed decision

[scopiton]

stay on the boat as long as it floats
jump when there is no hope
is porter in a better situation with many debts and the uncertain futur of a starting company ?

may be you could apply to middle east companies with that time; ever thought about it ?

[taffer]

Thanks for the info so far guys, much appreciated.

As I said before I really do enjoy the job and the flying. Despite what's said about Jazz, I enjoy going to work every day and often prefer going in to having a day off. Lots of variety in the flying. It just gets a little worriesome when you see captains with 10 years seniority getting bumped back to FO. Progression can take a long time, but I guess this does say something positive about the company when the senior guys dont really want to leave.

[. .]

GGN is currently in the middle of their contract negotiations. GGN no longer has the 6 month upgrade, infact, a lot of the CargoJet folks that were laid off hold seniority at GGN. So those people will be the ones grabbing the last few upgrades before the shit hits the fan.

[just curious]

Bad move. You're in now. If you could get a short leave for a captaincy fine, but to give up a seniority number for no particularly good reason... As long as you have the PIC time for your ATPL, tough it out.

[Samson]

Young guys who want to skip getting the PIC time please take note. Fast tracking has drawbacks.

[Chuck Yeagermister]

Am I reading this right? your riding shot gun on a jet, in a 705 operation. young, single, no kids and debt free........ and your asking about how to better your situation...... lol.

[Samson]

All those direct entry college kids must be sweating just as hard. Hopefully they didn't burn any bridges with their former classmates. They might be your captain very soon.

[taffer]

All those direct entry college kids must be sweating just as hard. Hopefully they didn't burn any bridges with their former classmates. They might be your captain very soon.

Actually those "kids" are in a good situation. They were hired before Jazz started doubling up on groundschool sizes. Even if we laid off the same number of pilots we did during 2001, they'd still have jobs here. And if they were laid off, they could go instruct for a few years and maintain their jazz seniority number.

[Samson]

And if they were laid off, they could go instruct for a few years and maintain their jazz seniority number.

Problem solved then. We'll just take little Timmy out of school and put him to work so we can eat.

To the original poster,
You were taking a gamble going straight for the cushy jet job without the command time to back it up and you know it. If you're looking at a layoff now you should suck it up and go back to square one. If you're lucky someone will take a chance on you with their Navajo or something. You're going to hate that job though with the wing covers, preheating, -40 temps, 2am callouts etc. Especially since you're used to a stewardess rubbing your feet and bringing you coffee all day long.
Best bet I'd say is try to find another place that puts unqualified people in jets. You're going to have to leave Canada probably. Look to the middle east or asia. Good luck.

[taffer]

Samson, you make a valid point. I have my ATP so Im not trying to chase PIC time, just stability. I have the opportunity to return to my old job and move captain, it's something Im considering, just not sure if I want it right now as I dont know if Id get approved for a LOA. There's no layoffs right now and it doesnt sound like there will be in the near future, but we all know how quickly that can change. I spent several years up north dealing with -40C weather, fueling my own plane, brewing my own coffee, deicing myself, etc, and wouldnt have problems readjusting to it.

[Samson]

Ah, in that case stay at Jazz and just tell yourself that it's pointless to worry about it. Have a plan B in the works in case that layoff does indeed come.

[like2fly]

I have my ATP so Im not trying to chase PIC time, just stability.

Taffer,
I hear what you are trying to say, but dude, if "stability" is what you want, aviation in Canada is certainly the wrong industry to be in. All the best anyway!

[mattedfred]

Best bet I'd say is try to find another place that puts unqualified people in jets.

your kidding right?

you do realize what they do in the US don't you?

[Biggles]

I am in the exact same boat you're in. There are many pro's and con's to consider, as many have stated before me. Here are a few that I've come up with:

Yes, it is somewhat unstable at Jazz, but really it is pretty much the same thing across the board with airlines these days. Canada would be hooped without Jazz; without us all the flights to Timmins, Sault, Val D'or, Les Isles, etc would have to be made up by all sorts of smaller ops like Georgian. And they don't have the capacity. So as far as canadian regional flying, Jazz is about as stable as you can get. Besides, how could it get worse at Jazz. These contract negotiations will pan out some benefits for us, and make it a little more easy to admit where you work.

Porter is a good outfit, pay is somewhat more that what you're making now, but consider this: start pay is 40K there. You're just about to get a pay raise to 42K with Jazz. They don't have the medical or travel benefits nor pension plan Jazz has. Although they seem to be doing well, expanding (started working on a new terminal at YTZ to accomodate all of their business) and all that, Porter is still in the honeymoon stage of the industry. I'm not sure how long they are going to be around for. The economy, the island and all of it's whiny wanker neighbors ...

Yes, the general work environment is a pretty negative one here with just about everyone bitching about anything from getting rid of the chocolate chip cookies to pay to how crew sched in constantly finding new ways to make our day more difficult. That unfortunately is the nature of the beast. You're gonna find that at GGN, Porter (maybe not as much at porter), CMA, AC ... I'm not saying anyone should settle for it, I'm just saying that as pilots the general consensus is that the grass is always greener on the other side of the tarmac.

If AC is what you're looking for, remember you are guaranteed an interview when your number comes up. Just make sure you keep your profile up to date and logbook in order. It won't be for a while, but at least it in the pipes. When the industry starts picking up again, you'll have a whole whack more hours and your resume will look alot better. If you leave Jazz now, you may miss out on the interview opportunity. By the way, if you get on with AC your seniority will transfer over (after probation and to a max of 4 yrs), which means a better sched and lifestyle.

I could go on, but I think you get the idea. I'll be watching this thread with interest as I've been offered jobs elsewhere for better pay, but I'm unsure if it is the best move at this time. Jazz is a good outfit that will be around through this recession we're getting into.

What about taking a RB and flying part time elsewhere? LOA if you're on the RJ? I know they're not giving out any LOA's to D8 fo's in YYZ

Either way, best of luck. Hope it all works out for you. Look out for #1.