Post-Secondary Education

[flying_dutchman]

I decided to take the quick and easy and got my CPL + MEIR at a vocational flight school and have already landed my first job in the industry. Now I am at the point of trying to decide if it is more beneficial for my career to go back to school for a diploma/degree or spend the years racking up the hours. Is a post secondary diploma really worth the potential 1500-2000 hours I could build in the meantime?

[fingersmac]

If you've secured a flying job I'd stick with that and build some time. In the meantime you could look into going to university part time or via correspondence. There are lots of schools offering distance education. Look at Athabasca University in AB. They are tailored to working individuals who want to follow up with a degree in their spare time. They're an open university that offers the majority of their courses via correspondence/internet.

In this industry, hours/experience usually comes first.

[just curious]

When I started, I had just went to school when 250 hour pilots were getting hired at Air Canada. When my degree was finished, they had upped the ante at AC to 1500 hours. Then they stopped altogether. My degree (BA, English) was made irrelevent by the development of "Spell Check".

So I started flying very very slowly. I would see from time to time, positions requiring a degree, or equivalent. Canadian Airlines, the Forces, Air Canada. I was still flying. A few years into the '90's AvCollege preferences appeared. Same deal. Couldn't afford to quit work.

I advanced, and discovered there were gaps in my professional education. I was in the bush. Norsemen drivers are entertaining, and can set up a camp, do a field repair, or thaw out and start an engine at 60 below, but are not, by and large good CRM instructors, nor would they be apt to be able (or want to tell you) how to run an SMS program.

I took aviation safety short courses at USC, where I was the only flunky in a course of 30 people or so. CP at Delta, test pilots from Sikorsky, the Director of Flight Safety for the Canadian, Dutch, and Norwegian Air Force... and me. I took CRM from United, and Continental. Max time away from work... 2 weeks. I went in the winter when the weather sucked. Didn't miss any flying.

I realized there is a diference between teaching 17 year-olds to takeoff and land a C172, and teaching about the engines and props of Twin Otters and Kingairs. So I took a diploma in teaching adults from St FX. While flying.

Several years of perfect attendance put me in a management role, with no better training other than "don't do it like that guy!". I got a new degree, while flying. The vast majority of the classes were teleconferenced, and I spent a lot of the time slapping myself on the forehead and saying- "So that's why!" Turns out working that many years had given me a zillion practical examples of management techniques, and errors.

Now you can register on Workopolis for AC, Jazz, WestJet, and see the additional skills they would like, or award more points for. Increasingly it's a skills-based approach to merit. What you bring to their table. Turns out they like sim time, and I don't just have it, I can run the sim. And do rides in it.

In the end, I don't know if I am any more marketable. I probably am. I haven't looked. I like it where I am. I get paid more for what I know, and it gives me more variety.

I suspect that you may, at this stage of your career, have some idea of the things you may need to learn. Starting out, most people, 99% perhaps, have zero idea of what would be useful for them to learn along with the driving of airplanes. Ask a driver retiring with 30000 hours what they wish they had learned along the way.

I find new things that interest me all the time. Some courses I'll pay for, some my boss. If you can put together a course to teach First Aid, Basic Fire-fighting, or Wilderness Survival, you'll be able to make money at it on the side.

Here's some leads...

Aviation Safety & Accident Investigation
http://viterbi.usc.edu/aviation/ University Of Southern California
http://www.avsaf.org/ Embry Riddle
http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/soe/shortcou ... /index.jsp Cranfield University
http://www.bcrsp.ca/faqs.html CRSP Designation

Training Adults
http://www.stfx.ca/academic/adulted-diploma/

Going Back to School in General

http://www2.athabascau.ca/programs/undergraduate.php Athabasca University Undergrad Programs
http://www.royalroads.ca/programs/facul ... drship-ma/ Royal Roads Graduate Program.

[Embraer190]

I decided to take the quick and easy and got my CPL + MEIR at a vocational flight school and have already landed my first job in the industry. Now I am at the point of trying to decide if it is more beneficial for my career to go back to school for a diploma/degree or spend the years racking up the hours. Is a post secondary diploma really worth the potential 1500-2000 hours I could build in the meantime?

It's a tough call seeing as hiring trends cannot be predicted. If there is a shortage of pilots, they will take any pilots they can get. If the amount of applicants outnumber the amount of positions, they will be very selective. As far as I know, priority is given to those with College Diplomas and University degrees. According to an AC insider, it is pretty much a prerequisite now. Maybe you can do both? Take part-time classes and work towards a degree or diploma while flying. Best of luck and Congrats.

EMJ190

[Changes in Latitudes]

Wise words from Just Curious...I second it with nothing further to add.

When I started, I had just went to school when 250 hour pilots were getting hired at Air Canada. When my degree was finished, they had upped the ante at AC to 1500 hours. Then they stopped altogether. My degree (BA, English) was made irrelevent by the development of "Spell Check".

So I started flying very very slowly. I would see from time to time, positions requiring a degree, or equivalent. Canadian Airlines, the Forces, Air Canada. I was still flying. A few years into the '90's AvCollege preferences appeared. Same deal. Couldn't afford to quit work.

I advanced, and discovered there were gaps in my professional education. I was in the bush. Norsemen drivers are entertaining, and can set up a camp, do a field repair, or thaw out and start an engine at 60 below, but are not, by and large good CRM instructors, nor would they be apt to be able (or want to tell you) how to run an SMS program.

I took aviation safety short courses at USC, where I was the only flunky in a course of 30 people or so. CP at Delta, test pilots from Sikorsky, the Director of Flight Safety for the Canadian, Dutch, and Norwegian Air Force... and me. I took CRM from United, and Continental. Max time away from work... 2 weeks. I went in the winter when the weather sucked. Didn't miss any flying.

I realized there is a diference between teaching 17 year-olds to takeoff and land a C172, and teaching about the engines and props of Twin Otters and Kingairs. So I took a diploma in teaching adults from St FX. While flying.

Several years of perfect attendance put me in a management role, with no better training other than "don't do it like that guy!". I got a new degree, while flying. The vast majority of the classes were teleconferenced, and I spent a lot of the time slapping myself on the forehead and saying- "So that's why!" Turns out working that many years had given me a zillion practical examples of management techniques, and errors.

Now you can register on Workopolis for AC, Jazz, WestJet, and see the additional skills they would like, or award more points for. Increasingly it's a skills-based approach to merit. What you bring to their table. Turns out they like sim time, and I don't just have it, I can run the sim. And do rides in it.

In the end, I don't know if I am any more marketable. I probably am. I haven't looked. I like it where I am. I get paid more for what I know, and it gives me more variety.

I suspect that you may, at this stage of your career, have some idea of the things you may need to learn. Starting out, most people, 99% perhaps, have zero idea of what would be useful for them to learn along with the driving of airplanes. Ask a driver retiring with 30000 hours what they wish they had learned along the way.

I find new things that interest me all the time. Some courses I'll pay for, some my boss. If you can put together a course to teach First Aid, Basic Fire-fighting, or Wilderness Survival, you'll be able to make money at it on the side.

Here's some leads...

Aviation Safety & Accident Investigation
http://viterbi.usc.edu/aviation/ University Of Southern California
http://www.avsaf.org/ Embry Riddle
http://www.cranfield.ac.uk/soe/shortcou ... /index.jsp Cranfield University
http://www.bcrsp.ca/faqs.html CRSP Designation

Training Adults
http://www.stfx.ca/academic/adulted-diploma/

Going Back to School in General

http://www2.athabascau.ca/programs/undergraduate.php Athabasca University Undergrad Programs
http://www.royalroads.ca/programs/facul ... drship-ma/ Royal Roads Graduate Program.

[Rockie]

Everybody I know who does not have formal post secondary education (including me) wishes they did. I've never met anyone who has post secondary education who wishes they didn't.

Excellent post by Just Curious.

[Hedley]

Another slightly different take on Rockie's comment:

People who haven't gone to University often attribute
too much importance to it.

People who have gone to University often attribute too
little importance to it.

The truth is somewhere inbetween.

[767]

Everybody I know who does not have formal post secondary education (including me) wishes they did. I've never met anyone who has post secondary education who wishes they didn't.

Excellent post by Just Curious.

Well, I dont have a degree. I am not worried about not having one. I am working in the industry. So, looks like you met the first person who doesnt really wish they had a degree.

I dont discourage anyone to get a degree, however, I believe that a degree is not for everyone. You should only go for it if you know you can do it, otherwise dont waste the time.

[matt777]

I'm doing an engineering degree right now while working on my CPL. When I graduate I'm going to give flying commercially a shot, if the market sucks or if I don't enjoy it as much as I thought I would, I have a pretty stellar back up career.

[Strega]

I'm doing an engineering degree right now while working on my CPL. When I graduate I'm going to give flying commercially a shot, if the market sucks or if I don't enjoy it as much as I thought I would, I have a pretty stellar back up career.

Keep flying "fun"

In other words, get a real job, and fly on your own accord.

[AuxBatOn]

I'm doing an engineering degree right now while working on my CPL. When I graduate I'm going to give flying commercially a shot, if the market sucks or if I don't enjoy it as much as I thought I would, I have a pretty stellar back up career.

Keep flying "fun"

In other words, get a real job, and fly on your own accord.

I fly for a living and I have fun. What was your point?

[Strega]

I fly for a living and I have fun. What was your point?

you are aslo educated, and can and will do a staff job at some point..

Most pilots, (from what I have seen) in the mid careers, find that flying is no longer fun, and realize that their whole "stepping stone" based careers have really gotten them no where but divorced and stuck "flying rubber dogshit".

Many years ago, a good friend of my dads (who had spent his whole life in aviation) told me to get a real job, and fly for fun, at the time I didnt understand it, but now I do.

I have worked as a pilot, and have a career as an Engineer, both have their pros and cons, but overall, Im happier working with other educated people, that you really dont find. Perhaps in the military things are different, but generally speaking, most pilots are quite ignorant.

I will always have the option to fly commercially whenever I want, the same cannot be said of most commercial pilots.

[AuxBatOn]

you are aslo educated, and can and will do a staff job at some point..

I had an education because I didn't have a choice. I had to do it to fly.

What does the staff job have to do with anything?

I fly for a living and I have fun. What was your point?

Most pilots, (from what I have seen) in the mid careers, find that flying is no longer fun, and realize that their whole "stepping stone" based careers have really gotten them no where but divorced and stuck "flying rubber dogshit".

Most drivers here seem to enjoy the job! In fact, the older ones refer to the job as the best job in the world! They don't seem unhappy!

I have worked as a pilot, and have a career as an Engineer, both have their pros and cons, but overall, Im happier working with other educated people, that you really dont find.

I'm happy working with people that share the same passion. I somehow doubt you can find that at large in engineering firms.

Perhaps in the military things are different, but generally speaking, most pilots are quite ignorant.

That's quite arrogant, isn't it?

I will always have the option to fly commercially whenever I want, the same cannot be said of most commercial pilots.

You THINK you will always have the option to fly commercially, until you want to do it. It may prove harder that it seems. Just like it would probably be hard for me to work in Engineering.

[Rockie]

I am an ignorant pilot

Admitting it's the first step Strega. Good luck with the program.

[Strega]

Rockie,

Please remove your "editied" slanderous post with my name attached.

[AuxBatOn]

Rockie,

Please remove your "editied" slanderous post with my name attached.

You did say that most civilian pilots were ignorant, do you consider above and beyong "most"?

[trey kule]

JC

The type of post you put on here makes wading through all the other crap woth while

Very nicely put.

[mcrit]

Post Secondary Education need not be a university degree. Why not learn a trade? Become a tool and die maker, a welder, or an industrial electrician? If there is a down turn in the industry and you have to work outside aviaiton you'll find that sort of an education much more useful that a B.A. in English or History.

[Rockie]

Rockie,

Please remove your "editied" slanderous post with my name attached.

cud u sey dat anudder wey pleze. ime knot smrt u nowe.

[human garbage]

Mcrit:Post Secondary Education need not be a university degree. Why not learn a trade? Become a tool and die maker, a welder, or an industrial electrician? If there is a down turn in the industry and you have to work outside aviaiton you'll find that sort of an education much more useful that a B.A. in English or History.

Listen to this man. If you do go to Uni, make sure you get a degree in something that can get you a job when out. There is a reason a BFA can stand for Bachelor of F&*k All. There is such a shortage of skilled labour these days you can quite easily make a white collar wage at a blue collar job. It took me almost eight years in aviation to top the wage at the trade job I left to fly.

To the OP: If you have a flying job, stick with it. As it was pointed out, there is always distance ed. Also, ask yourself if the companies that want a degree are the ones you want to fly for. Sure Big Red wants a degree, but if you don't want to work there it doesn't matter. I never aspired to be an airline driver so I said screw the sheepskin...

[E-Flyer]

I decided to take the quick and easy and got my CPL + MEIR at a vocational flight school and have already landed my first job in the industry. Now I am at the point of trying to decide if it is more beneficial for my career to go back to school for a diploma/degree or spend the years racking up the hours. Is a post secondary diploma really worth the potential 1500-2000 hours I could build in the meantime?

What kind of job did you land so quick after being done training...

I think that's a more realistic way to look at it, because if you're at a job where you won't be enjoying your time and remarking that they pay nothing, and the working conditions are shit, then how long do you see your self staying there?

I am just asking this because I trust that the job you're at with 250 hrs will not be great, but then again I don't know your personality either.

But if you think about it, you're going to have to go through that time of being treated like shit sooner or later, so maybe sticking to your job would be the better choice? Not sure, but anyway, what job is it? I am awefully curious. You make it sound so easy "I already landed my first job in the industry."

[E-Flyer]

If you've secured a flying job I'd stick with that and build some time. In the meantime you could look into going to university part time or via correspondence. There are lots of schools offering distance education. Look at Athabasca University in AB. They are tailored to working individuals who want to follow up with a degree in their spare time. They're an open university that offers the majority of their courses via correspondence/internet.

In this industry, hours/experience usually comes first.

I would say it always comes first except for the time you're applying for Air Canada. They want degrees. I feel sorry for them as they're losing out on some great candidates who are great pilot's as a result of spending a life time, not 4 years, but a life time improving their knowledge, theory, flying skills. These are the guys worthy of the job and not some college grad with average skills. That being said, there are some great pilot's with degrees too. But the degree should not be the deciding factor. It's like hiring a surgeon for your hospital based on if he has a pilot's license or not.

Oh well, I truly don't see my self working for a company with that attitude. My motto is, you're looking for pilot's, then look for the good pilot's. Having a degree doesn't make you a good pilot. What's wrong with spending a life time improving your knowledge and flying skills? I think that's more valuable than spending 4 yrs at a college and not needing to do much of that other flying related improvements...

Not saying that people with a degree are bad pilot's, but when Air Canada says they want to get the best; the best aren't always determined by going to college. What if that individual had no money left after completing his flight training? but is a kick ass pilot now?

I say, fly, enjoy your time, because if you do enjoy your time, your co-workers will recognize this, become your friends, go to better places, and put in good words for you... and from seeing another post, the 700 pilot's Westjet hired out of a stack of 3000 applicants got hired due to inside contacts.

Merry Christmas

[matt777]

If you've secured a flying job I'd stick with that and build some time. In the meantime you could look into going to university part time or via correspondence. There are lots of schools offering distance education. Look at Athabasca University in AB. They are tailored to working individuals who want to follow up with a degree in their spare time. They're an open university that offers the majority of their courses via correspondence/internet.

In this industry, hours/experience usually comes first.

I would say it always comes first except for the time you're applying for Air Canada. They want degrees. I feel sorry for them as they're losing out on some great candidates who are great pilot's as a result of spending a life time, not 4 years, but a life time improving their knowledge, theory, flying skills. These are the guys worthy of the job and not some college grad with average skills. That being said, there are some great pilot's with degrees too. But the degree should not be the deciding factor. It's like hiring a surgeon for your hospital based on if he has a pilot's license or not.

Oh well, I truly don't see my self working for a company with that attitude. My motto is, you're looking for pilot's, then look for the good pilot's. Having a degree doesn't make you a good pilot. What's wrong with spending a life time improving your knowledge and flying skills? I think that's more valuable than spending 4 yrs at a college and not needing to do much of that other flying related improvements...

Not saying that people with a degree are bad pilot's, but when Air Canada says they want to get the best; the best aren't always determined by going to college. What if that individual had no money left after completing his flight training? but is a kick ass pilot now?

I say, fly, enjoy your time, because if you do enjoy your time, your co-workers will recognize this, become your friends, go to better places, and put in good words for you... and from seeing another post, the 700 pilot's Westjet hired out of a stack of 3000 applicants got hired due to inside contacts.

Merry Christmas

Thats definitely a good point, but it goes both ways. Just because a pilot has spent four years flying instead of getting a degree doesn't mean he/she is an all star pilot. A degree proves to an employer that you are capable of working hard and learning new things, not saying that pilots without degrees aren't capable of those either but a degree just sort of solidifies it.

[E-Flyer]

Just because a pilot has spent four years flying instead of getting a degree doesn't mean he/she is an all star pilot. A degree proves to an employer that you are capable of working hard and learning new things, not saying that pilots without degrees aren't capable of those either but a degree just sort of solidifies it.

That being said, there are some great pilot's with degrees too. But the degree should not be the deciding factor. It's like hiring a surgeon for your hospital based on if he has a pilot's license or not.

A degree solidifies that you were interested in a subject matter and were interested to go and educate about it. It should not be a solidification or a deciding factor for an airline to hire a guy over another guy. Our profession doesn't require degrees, it requires good attitude, hours, and the potential to improve; therefore, the airlines shouldn't recommend degrees or even make a mention of how it will be an asset. Now speaking french or some other language? That's an asset, because you will run across people where you might be the only guy who could establish communication with a passenger or such.

A pilot has to be able to save the passengers when all he has is the RAT and attitude controls; I'm affraid a degree in basket weaving won't help him/her much.

I would be glad to be convinced otherwise, not using scientific data, but practical facts. Until that day I won't be convinced that a degree is necessary in our industry. If the issue ACA is trying to battle is that becoming a pilot is simply too easy in Canada, well then fix the standards. Don't put as many pilot's out there. This way, there would be a controlled rate of movement in the industry, pilot's wouldn't be struggling to find jobs, and our pay would be evenly distributed.

Allow 2 times for the written/flight exam. Why do I say 2? to factor in the fudge factor of having a bad day; we're human after all. There should be no reason why one should fail an exam to begin with - my idea is that if you can't do WELL on the transport exams, you don't have the theory required to be a proficient pilot.

But if you get 60% on the general knowledge, there's probably this entire circle of knowledge that you are not aware of which could lead to poor decision making by you. And this decision could lead to the death/injury of your passengers one day.

I know, it's absolutely impossible to know everything, but the standards here are too low. I like europe's theory system. They make sure you know your shit before they send you flying; however, I don't like their lack of focus on flying. Sure, they're strict on numbers, but a Commercial Pilot in Europe typically has no feel for a smooth operation of a plane. Dont' think that's true? fly on european airlines, not once, but a bunch of times and then compare the operation of the flight to canadian pilot's. North American's are generally good with stick and rudder, but poor with theory. Hmm theory... lectures... understanding... isn't this the aim and focus of a university degree? for you to learn the theory and understanding a subject matter? Perhaps that's why Air Canada weeds out people with no degrees, cause the general bias is that pilot's with no degrees don't spend time learning. I am sure there's got to be a better way to weed out pilot's.

I think you proved my point right here,

A degree proves to an employer that you are capable of working hard and learning new things,

How low does our flight training standards have to be for Air Canada to need to see extra education to believe that you are competent? Right... Plus, the guys working their ass off in -40 wind chills for the hopes of flying aren't working hard ? sort of unfair statement wouldn't you think? Because I think that dedication, and ambition is what would drive an individual to battle through tough working conditions in our shite industry; and it is a very unfair trade off when they finally get to the standard of flying for their national carrier and then getting turned down because of not having a degree. Plain Stupidity.

That being said, I am not speaking of pity; I'm doing my degree right now as well and I breezed through Grade 12 completing my CPL and High School with a 86% average. It wasn't hard at all, thus why getting into a college and getting a degree isn't hard. However, I wish I was spending the time I am in class by being in a plane, in IMC, improving my IFR skills.

I think requiring a degree is a lazy move by airlines like Air Canada instead of using their national status to improve flight training.

How come WJA is kicking ass right now, do they require degrees? No. They have some DAMN fine pilot's as does ACA. If you ask me, West Jet is the winner. They know how to keep customers happy and know how to treat their employees.

[av8tor_assrope]

Back on topic.

flying_dutchman: re-read JC’s post. I know him. He’s smart! (Not kissing ass).

Also, re-read mcrit’s post. I know him as well. He’s smart too!

I’m in the process of starting with Athabasca. I’ll probably be doing it on the other side of the world flying full time.

Also...check these guys out:
http://de.uwaterloo.ca/undergraduate.html

Cheers