Complaint to Nav Canada on ATC - worth it?

[light chop]

Got "chastised" yesterday by a tower controller at a very quiet airport for not listening to their new ATIS broadcast before contacting them (was just handed off from terminal controller). Said controller also gave me grief about being way outside his/her control zone (I was 3nm from the centre of the airport) the CZ is 3nm radius. What gives? Every other controller I talked to on that day was great, a pleasure to talk to.

Is it worth contacting Nav Canada on something like this or just "let it go"? If we don't give feedback on this stuff will anything improve?

[Nark]

I'd let it go. Some people have a bad day. Doesn't sound like safety was a factor at all.

[Fizzr]

I wouldn't let it go. If the controller was having a bad day and he's usually good, then it won't be a big problem for him. If he's a habitual offender, it's another one on his file.

I work with someone like this. He makes us all look bad. If everyone who complained to me about this controller, complained to NavCanada then I wouldn't have to work with the a$$hole today. He would be long gone.

...sorry, a short rant.

[ahramin]

Absolutely. Write them a letter.

[Doc]

It's a slippery slope. Are you a regular? Keep in mind, FSS, ATC etc. can make it very hard on us. Been there. I was correct...but it didn't matter. Enforcement likes them better than us. I'd "lay in wait" for a screw up really worth "stirring it up" over. Then again, he may have just had a bad day.
It's better to save the "long knives" for when they are really necessary.

[Cat Driver]

When you go up against the system you will lose.

So like Doc says save it for something important.

[grimey]

You don't necessarily need to write a letter to the company itself. If you have a few minutes on the ground, it may be easier and more effective to call the controller or specialist's supervisor or manager. Check the local white pages for Nav Canada, and try to find the number for the Site Manager. Less paperwork, quicker response, and if it's a one time thing, there's no paper trail generated at all. But you can be damn sure that if a manager is getting a complaint a week about one of his employees, they'll be sitting someone down for a talking to. Same thing works in reverse, too. A pilot missing one call in a month shouldn't get violated, but they do sometimes. If there's no safety risk, better to just call him or his CP when it's not busy, and have them deal with it internally.

For something relatively minor like this, better to have someone go up and chat to the person that day, than 15-20 days later when nobody even remembers what was going on anymore. There were plenty of time when I was a bit short with a pilot when I shouldn't have been, and vice versa. I doubt that many of those I worked with over the radio really thought I had something against them though. But there are a few control freaks (no pun intended) working in both ATS and for the airlines, and they could all use a lesson in common sense and discretion once in a while. Should you make your calls exactly when required? Yea. Is it normally a big deal if you make them 30 seconds early or late? Nope.

(I'm no longer a NC employee, so I've no real interest either way in whether people get written up)

[canpilot]

Hahahaha!

Sounds like CZBB.

On another note once recieved the following clearance " GABC proceed northbound, over the threshold of runway 26L, maintain 9,500"

I did as I was told.. however.. apparently.. the controller said his clearance meant the departure end of 26L..aka the threshold 08L.. berated me over the radio and told me I needed to learn how to read the CFS. My buddy who was in the aircraft had about 2,oooTT and indicated to me that I indeed knew how to read the CFS and understand a clearance..

ATC has bad days as well.. and you and I can never be immune to a controller who wants to make his or her bad mood known to all ..


nothing you can do.. let er go

[trey kule]

let it go.

[JigglyBus]

Or you could approach it like this.....

Call the tower and ask to speak with the controller in question. Tell them that you are calling because you made a mistake and want to make sure you understand it correctly so that you don't make it again.

It's not exactly the truth, but it may lead to the truth. Always keep in mind there is a possibility, however slim, that it was your error. Even if that is the case, explain to the controller that the chastising on frequency troubled you, and you believe it put your flight's safety at risk. If he/she doesn't understand this, and agree with you, they have no business on the mic. If the conversation doesn't end amiably, report the whole matter to higher authorities.

[Doc]

Or you could approach it like this.....

Call the tower and ask to speak with the controller in question. Tell them that you are calling because you made a mistake and want to make sure you understand it correctly so that you don't make it again.

It's not exactly the truth, but it may lead to the truth. Always keep in mind there is a possibility, however slim, that it was your error. Even if that is the case, explain to the controller that the chastising on frequency troubled you, and you believe it put your flight's safety at risk. If he/she doesn't understand this, and agree with you, they have no business on the mic. If the conversation doesn't end amiably, report the whole matter to higher authorities.

You might as well head in with a pair of knee pads and bright red lipstick! Why would you admit to a mistake you didn't make...grow a pair!

[light chop]

Made a call to the tower manager on this one, I'll post the results.

[amphib]

Sounds like a tower in MB.
Absolutely call the tower manager and or UOS and let them know you were not impressed with their service impress. It may only lead to a chat with the controller, but atleast you let the manager know.
It's all about customer service, whether it's Sears, the Keg, or a ATC.

[light chop]

Had a chat with the tower manager, he was very cordial and called me back after he had a talk with said controller. I just expressed my concern over the attitude I received over the radio - he passed on my concerns. Controller didn't think he/she had attitude (if I don't have the atis just give me the #'s, don't waste radio time telling me "we have an atis and next time you should listen to the atis" - cripes there was me + 1 other aircraft the whole 30 minutes I was there - sorry I woke you up) and apparently he/she was also surprised when I widened out my base to get slowed down (please don't assume all aircraft can come down and slow down like a 172).

Ah well, next time I'll just take it like a schoolboy and wet my pants (or buzz the tower at 180 knts).

[GForce]

I remember, quite some time ago, doing my ride for my private licence heading into Waterloo Airport. The examiner beside me was working the radio and requested clearance into the control zone from the west for a touch-and-go and then a departure to the east. The controller cleared us left downwind for the active and to report joining. A few minutes later he re-cleared us to join the base leg instead. Well, there would be no phone calls to the tower today... the examiner beside me completely snapped! The controller had barely even finished his last word when the examiner asked him when he was going to make up his mind for the poor student pilot in this aircraft on his flight test. "If you can't make up your mind then maybe someone else in that tower can! Now where do you want us?" he said. After some very quiet moments.. ..we were subsequently re-cleared for the downwind leg. It's all about balls!!! (and whether you'll risk losing them!)

GForce

[Just another canuck]

Boo hoo... let it go. We as pilots wouldn't like it if we were "tattled" on every time we were a little confrontational on the radio.

Remember, everybody has a bad day once in awhile... and I don't think you should get in shit for that.

[Cat Driver]

the examiner beside me completely snapped!

In that case the examiner should have his/her authority as an examiner revoked because if one can not control their emotions over something that unimportant how can they be in a position to examine others?.

[jim_from_texas]

A few years ago we took off on a sched flight from a certain town in the Maritimes and the fss guy didn't realize his mic was still on and started cursing at us, using f.... you, fu...ng as....es, cursed at our nationality (he thought we were French) we weren't. We filed a complaint with our chief pilot, he got in touch with NAV Canada and a few weeks later we got a formal appology.

[Just another canuck]

We filed a complaint with our chief pilot, he got in touch with NAV Canada and a few weeks later we got a formal appology.

Awww shucks, that's great. Did it make you feel better? I hope so....

Didn't know you were so sensitive south of the border.

Honestly, if anything like that happened to me, I'd look at my crewmember, laugh and say "What an asshole!!" and that would be the end of it. Not saying what he did was right, but how would you feel if someone lost their job over something like this.

[trey kule]

light chop. just read your latest post.

Here is a thought.....you are supposed to get the ATIS before you call in....now it seems to me that the FSS person might have just been reminding you do your job right as a piiot. I know , I know..everyone makes mistakes.
But not everyone thnks the controller should just give them the info.....and that the controller has no reason to be pissed off at some pilot who is so unprofessional...doesnt matter if you were the only plane in 6 hours...you didnt do your job right.

The good folks at ATC have overlooked a few of my boo boos in the past: I think maybe you should have cut this one some slack...particularily when it was you that , by your own admission, was not dong what you should have.

[jim_from_texas]

Awww shucks it really did. And please dont be offensive, Im not an American. Keep your ignorance in check.

[Just another canuck]

You're not American... don't know why I ever made that assumption...

And I wasn't being ignorant... I was trying to make a joke out of an otherwise unfunny situation. Anyway, sorry for mistaking you for a yank. I was right about one thing though. You sure are sensitive.

[scrambled_legs]

I remember, quite some time ago, doing my ride for my private licence heading into Waterloo Airport. The examiner beside me was working the radio and requested clearance into the control zone from the west for a touch-and-go and then a departure to the east. The controller cleared us left downwind for the active and to report joining. A few minutes later he re-cleared us to join the base leg instead. Well, there would be no phone calls to the tower today... the examiner beside me completely snapped! The controller had barely even finished his last word when the examiner asked him when he was going to make up his mind for the poor student pilot in this aircraft on his flight test. "If you can't make up your mind then maybe someone else in that tower can! Now where do you want us?" he said. After some very quiet moments.. ..we were subsequently re-cleared for the downwind leg. It's all about balls!!! (and whether you'll risk losing them!)

GForce

WTF???

"If you can't make up your mind then maybe someone else in that tower can! Now where do you want us?"

If I was working him I would have told him, "I want you to remain clear of my airspace and give me a call when you've found your marbles."

First of all, as someone pointed out already, if the student can't handle the radios, he shouldn't be getting tested in the first place.

Second understanding ATC is every bit as important as knowing how the fuel system in your plane works. In fact, not understanding ATC will kill you a lot sooner. If the student can't handle changing a clearance limit from the downwind to the base, then what can he handle? The reason the controller gave him the base, was probably because traffic allowed and it was faster route to get on the ground. Any other pilot would have been appreciative. Sounds like another typical CFI with a chip on his shoulder because he didn't make it in the real world.

What I don't get is how sensitive some pilots are. This is not a customer appreciation business, this is a save your ass from your own mistakes and mistakes of the pilots around you business. It seems like someone will take offense to anything nowadays, even implied critisism. When I make a mistake from the other side of the glass, I'd always prefer a good old tongue lashing rather than paperwork and a visit from TC, but I guess times have changed.

light chop, if you really feel offended by getting told to check the ATIS before calling, talk to the controller about it when you get on the ground, leave the management out of it. If the controller is just an asshole and is an ass on the phone as well (which is also recorded), then pursue it with management. Half of the management aren't ATC and don't know the rules anyways, so they really don't understand your situation.

As far as your comment

"Said controller also gave me grief about being way outside his/her control zone (I was 3nm from the centre of the airport) the CZ is 3nm radius.

I really think there is something more to this story. There are some controllers out there that should tone it down with the attitude and make us all look bad, but your story just doesn't add up. No controller will give you hell for calling so far back at 3nm, especially on a hand off from another unit. You either misunderstood, or they were off their meds and delirious. Maybe it was the other way around. Terminal could have been late handing you off and tower thought you were lazy switching over while you came ripping in. It would also explain why they were irritated that you didn't have the ATIS. If someone called me 3 miles back and is just over a minute from touching down without even knowing what runway is active, I'd be a little miffed too. Talking to the controller would have solved this miscommunication and probably resulted in an apology, but talking to management will keep you from ever knowing why your brief meeting managed to enrage this person so much.

Did the manager give you any explanation or just say that the controller was spoken too?

[GForce]

The examiner beside me was working the radio
GForce

Weird, never heard of an examiner doing the radio work for someone on a flight test.
EngineGuy

As I had been doing everything as I normally would (yes, radios, too) up to that point, I was quite surprised myself when the DFTE told me just to relax and get us into the zone for a touch and go while he talked to the tower. It became obvious after his remarks to the tower that this was probably an ongoing "battle" with this trainee in the tower. I'm certain that we would all agree that being re-cleared to the base leg, instead of downwind, would work well for the majority of people in this same situation. Obviously an over reaction but definitely an open opportunity for someone to "get even".
I'm just sharing this story, guys, in response to LightChop's thread. My focus is on the DFTE's response to the tower and not on my abilities and responsibilities way back on my private ride. My skills at the time were the same as anyone's on this thread...stellar!! (I'm kind of glad I've never seen this guy on an IFR ride!)

[scrambled_legs]

Obviously an over reaction but definitely an open opportunity for someone to "get even".

You mean definitely an open opportunity for someone to make an ass of themselves.

I'm not sure how this in any way "gets even" with the tower controller. If anything, all it does is give TC a good reason to review this individuals DFTE qualifications. Nothing like teaching the student by example... looks like you learned from it

What a winner!!!

The standards of teaching just keep getting better and better...