Hi Doc,
I thought I would start a new thread in regards to what you asked in the last post directed to me.
I do not support pay for training schemes of any sort. I believe that they are a negative aspect to our industry. That includes promissory notes. I believe that your word should be enough.
The reason that I ask you pointed questions about your stance on bonds, promissory notes etc. etc. is because it seems you are someone who is very black and white about your views on the bond/pay for training scheme. However in your earlier years you flew for, which means that you supported, one of the original pft outfits. Is this a fair comment to make? Does this mean that younger pilots should listen to the advice that you have to give them?
Just so you know a little about me. I have signed a training bond before. Looking back on it, it is something that I feel bad about because I do believe that ultimately I hurt my industry for personal gain. Knowing what I know now, I probably would have went a different way.
To Doc
Moderators: lilfssister, North Shore, sky's the limit, sepia, Sulako, I WAS Birddog
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slob driver
- Rank 3
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:01 pm
Re: To Doc
I did indeed work for Carl for a couple of years, on and off. All contract flights. I was never really an employee. I'd get a call to do a trip to, say STL, do the trip, get paid by the mile. Carl had some sort of FO program running. He'd have some young guys living in the hangar. I don't know if they were actually paying for this training....but I don't think they were. But I do think they were doing the flying for free. Again, I had nothing to do with this side of Carl's operation. Carl always treated me with complete professionalism. I spent many hours just shooting the shit in his office with him.
One way, or the other, I'm confused as to why you would really care about my stand on bonds, paying for jobs, buying training etc. You want to sign a bond? It's becoming pretty normal. That's entirely up to you.
You want to pay for a job? I won't respect you in the morning. Again, it's up to you. If you have the money (or can get it) it's your money. I'd never hire you if that ever became an issue. I like pilots with good decision making skills. This is not a good decision.
You want to go out and buy a type rating? I think (my opinion only) this is a less evil choice than greasing the pockets of an employer directly. At least in this scenario, it's YOUR type rating. You are not an indentured chattel of one employer. You can take your rating with you, and not feel guilty about it.
That's about it. Where I stand. Where do you stand on the issue? I've never signed a bond. I have shaken hands. That's always been enough.
Ideas welcome. I'm confused as to why this justifies what VAL, Keystone, Bearskin, etc. are doing.
Warning...if this becomes a "pissing" match, the thread will be pulled....so lets discuss it. But behave.
One way, or the other, I'm confused as to why you would really care about my stand on bonds, paying for jobs, buying training etc. You want to sign a bond? It's becoming pretty normal. That's entirely up to you.
You want to pay for a job? I won't respect you in the morning. Again, it's up to you. If you have the money (or can get it) it's your money. I'd never hire you if that ever became an issue. I like pilots with good decision making skills. This is not a good decision.
You want to go out and buy a type rating? I think (my opinion only) this is a less evil choice than greasing the pockets of an employer directly. At least in this scenario, it's YOUR type rating. You are not an indentured chattel of one employer. You can take your rating with you, and not feel guilty about it.
That's about it. Where I stand. Where do you stand on the issue? I've never signed a bond. I have shaken hands. That's always been enough.
Ideas welcome. I'm confused as to why this justifies what VAL, Keystone, Bearskin, etc. are doing.
Warning...if this becomes a "pissing" match, the thread will be pulled....so lets discuss it. But behave.
Re: To Doc
Though I can not relate to the aviation industry I can respond as to why some companies may require you to be involved in a training bond. In B.C., not to many years ago, the employer would pay for our education to whatever level of Paramedic we aspired to be. There are several different levels. What was happening here is that the training would be given and the Paramedic would then jump ship to a higher paying Province, challenge that Provinces exams, and work there. This became a bit of an issue as the expense of training one of the higher levels was in the 10's of thousands of dollars only to have the employee move away.
We have many issues here in B.C. with our training now but the Paramedic is on the hook for his/her training costs and in the case of ALS and, I suppose, BLS as well, is there is no promise of a job after the training, they make no money while they are in the training program. This still leads to a high departure rate from this Province as the most these guys are to make when they start up with the BCAS is $2/hr, if they are lucky enough to get to what is called a foxtrot (just one of our many designations) station they will then make $10/hr. Once you accept a Full Time position you will end up in Vancouver making roughly $45,000.00 a year (tough to live on that in YVR)
I'm not sure of the point that I am trying to make except that education costs the employer a lot of money and when the training is given and the employee moves on, well lets just say, you probably have the guys/gals before you to blame for the training bond issue.
Just so that I am not misunderstood, I do not endorse the whole training bond issue. As I stated to one of my superiors, it is the cost of doing business. If you treat the employees with respect, pay them what they are worth, and support them while they are working for the company, you would have healthy, happy employees and this would be a non-issue.
Hope I am not out of line.
We have many issues here in B.C. with our training now but the Paramedic is on the hook for his/her training costs and in the case of ALS and, I suppose, BLS as well, is there is no promise of a job after the training, they make no money while they are in the training program. This still leads to a high departure rate from this Province as the most these guys are to make when they start up with the BCAS is $2/hr, if they are lucky enough to get to what is called a foxtrot (just one of our many designations) station they will then make $10/hr. Once you accept a Full Time position you will end up in Vancouver making roughly $45,000.00 a year (tough to live on that in YVR)
I'm not sure of the point that I am trying to make except that education costs the employer a lot of money and when the training is given and the employee moves on, well lets just say, you probably have the guys/gals before you to blame for the training bond issue.
Just so that I am not misunderstood, I do not endorse the whole training bond issue. As I stated to one of my superiors, it is the cost of doing business. If you treat the employees with respect, pay them what they are worth, and support them while they are working for the company, you would have healthy, happy employees and this would be a non-issue.
Hope I am not out of line.
Re: To Doc
Quotes: “...the training would be given and the Paramedic would then jump ship to a higher paying Province,....” “.........only to have the employee move away.”
Of course! What else did the “management” expect?
What utter insolence and unethical behaviour for an employer to consider that because he provided job specific training to an employee he now has the right to pay that employee less than the market rate for his services and qualifications. Of course an employee on completion of job specific training should not be required to subsequently subsidise his employer. What sort of managerial losers run this operation, and far too many air operations? What level of ethics and intelligence do such employers have?
Quote: “... a higher paying...”
There’s the essence of the problem. The pay is lagging behind what an employee may obtain elsewhere. The correct response of a capable employer of integrity would be to adjust his pay scale to become competitive. Only a Bozo would try to forcefully retain an unhappy and underpaid employee, with all the problems that is likely to bring.
Competently run operations rely for employee retention on paying their employees properly and treating them decently! If employees are paid the market rate for their services and qualifications then they will be unlikely to move to another employer, province or even country. We have mobility of labour as a basic right. Serfdom and slavery went out a few years ago, except maybe in some areas of aviation. Employers who underpay and ill treat employees can expect them to move. Such unscrupulous employers have brought it upon themselves and regrettably the industry as a whole.
Of course! What else did the “management” expect?
What utter insolence and unethical behaviour for an employer to consider that because he provided job specific training to an employee he now has the right to pay that employee less than the market rate for his services and qualifications. Of course an employee on completion of job specific training should not be required to subsequently subsidise his employer. What sort of managerial losers run this operation, and far too many air operations? What level of ethics and intelligence do such employers have?
Quote: “... a higher paying...”
There’s the essence of the problem. The pay is lagging behind what an employee may obtain elsewhere. The correct response of a capable employer of integrity would be to adjust his pay scale to become competitive. Only a Bozo would try to forcefully retain an unhappy and underpaid employee, with all the problems that is likely to bring.
Competently run operations rely for employee retention on paying their employees properly and treating them decently! If employees are paid the market rate for their services and qualifications then they will be unlikely to move to another employer, province or even country. We have mobility of labour as a basic right. Serfdom and slavery went out a few years ago, except maybe in some areas of aviation. Employers who underpay and ill treat employees can expect them to move. Such unscrupulous employers have brought it upon themselves and regrettably the industry as a whole.
Re: To Doc
In B.C. our employer is the B.C. Government.
Hard to stay happy in a job where the management team is giving themselves double digit pay increases while we settle to 0,0,0 and 0, and we run our rural communities on employees that are part time making between $2 and $10/hr. The story is a bit more convoluted than just these two examples but this is an aviation website and I'll stop now.
Always kind find a worse story out there if you look.
Hard to stay happy in a job where the management team is giving themselves double digit pay increases while we settle to 0,0,0 and 0, and we run our rural communities on employees that are part time making between $2 and $10/hr. The story is a bit more convoluted than just these two examples but this is an aviation website and I'll stop now.
Always kind find a worse story out there if you look.
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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Re: To Doc
Was the governments gun registration effective enough to prevent the possibility of a revolution?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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slob driver
- Rank 3
- Posts: 105
- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:01 pm
Re: To Doc
Doc,
The only reason I am making inquiries in regards to your thoughts about bonds and the like is because, as I stated earlier, I would like to know where you are coming from, so I can form an educated opinion on your posts. You are quite vocal about your dislike of bonds, and PFT.
Since you would like to know what I think, here it goes.
I myself frown on bonds, promissory notes, but they seem to be here to stay at the King Air/1900 level of flying in Canada. I do not believe what Bearskin does is PFT. I believe that is a bond. I also believe that what Jetsgo did was a bond. However, in regards to Jetsgo and Val, I believe that someone who signs an unsecured bond may not be quite as financially savvy as someone who signs a bond with Bearskin, which would be covered under their Alpa CBA in the event of a liquidation situation. I believe that Jetsgo was different because when you signed that bond, you were setting a precedent since other major canadian jet carriers such as Air Canada and Westjet did not make you sign a bond (C3 I believe made you sign a promissory note, but I may be mistaken).What Millard did, and what Regency did a few years ago is PFT. I believe that it is disgraceful.
I also believe that even if I do not have to pay for my training because I brought a PPC to a company, but that company makes other pilots PFT, then I am exacerbating the problems our industry has with bonds and PFT.
I guess that I do not agree with the fact that you would say that you would not hire an ex-JV pilot because of the fact that he signed his $10,000 bond. You consider this poor decision making, but in the past, you financially supported an airline that made pilots participate in a PFT scheme by flying for it. To me this is a bit hypocritical. I also believe that ignorance on your part is no excuse for flying for a company that had a PFT program in place.
I hope that I have not offended you TOO much. I myself would be a little upset if someone said what I have. I would also again like to point out that I am not white on white since I have in fact signed a training bond in the past.
As well I hoped that I have played fair. I would prefer to have an adult conversation and not have these posts removed.
P.S.
I believe that flying for free is as bad if not worse than being in a PFT scheme. It completely sells us as pilots short and what we are trying to achieve.. i.e. put food on our table, pay our mortgage and have a little left over to go to Mexico!
The only reason I am making inquiries in regards to your thoughts about bonds and the like is because, as I stated earlier, I would like to know where you are coming from, so I can form an educated opinion on your posts. You are quite vocal about your dislike of bonds, and PFT.
Since you would like to know what I think, here it goes.
I myself frown on bonds, promissory notes, but they seem to be here to stay at the King Air/1900 level of flying in Canada. I do not believe what Bearskin does is PFT. I believe that is a bond. I also believe that what Jetsgo did was a bond. However, in regards to Jetsgo and Val, I believe that someone who signs an unsecured bond may not be quite as financially savvy as someone who signs a bond with Bearskin, which would be covered under their Alpa CBA in the event of a liquidation situation. I believe that Jetsgo was different because when you signed that bond, you were setting a precedent since other major canadian jet carriers such as Air Canada and Westjet did not make you sign a bond (C3 I believe made you sign a promissory note, but I may be mistaken).What Millard did, and what Regency did a few years ago is PFT. I believe that it is disgraceful.
I also believe that even if I do not have to pay for my training because I brought a PPC to a company, but that company makes other pilots PFT, then I am exacerbating the problems our industry has with bonds and PFT.
I guess that I do not agree with the fact that you would say that you would not hire an ex-JV pilot because of the fact that he signed his $10,000 bond. You consider this poor decision making, but in the past, you financially supported an airline that made pilots participate in a PFT scheme by flying for it. To me this is a bit hypocritical. I also believe that ignorance on your part is no excuse for flying for a company that had a PFT program in place.
I hope that I have not offended you TOO much. I myself would be a little upset if someone said what I have. I would also again like to point out that I am not white on white since I have in fact signed a training bond in the past.
As well I hoped that I have played fair. I would prefer to have an adult conversation and not have these posts removed.
P.S.
I believe that flying for free is as bad if not worse than being in a PFT scheme. It completely sells us as pilots short and what we are trying to achieve.. i.e. put food on our table, pay our mortgage and have a little left over to go to Mexico!
Re: To Doc
Quote: “I believe that flying for free is as bad if not worse than being in a PFT scheme.”
I agree. It is probably worse because it seems to involve breaking the law. Employers are required to pay professional pilots at least the minimum wage. Parties cannot contract out of what is legally required. If you fly for free then you become an accessory to the employer breaking the law. You are aiding and abetting the employer.
Perhaps the legal types would like to comment on this.
I agree. It is probably worse because it seems to involve breaking the law. Employers are required to pay professional pilots at least the minimum wage. Parties cannot contract out of what is legally required. If you fly for free then you become an accessory to the employer breaking the law. You are aiding and abetting the employer.
Perhaps the legal types would like to comment on this.
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Brown Bear
- Rank 7
- Posts: 657
- Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 1:17 pm
Re: To Doc
I'll get in on this one. What is this thing you call the PFT? Is this "pay for training"? If it is, why just not refer to it as "pay for training"? I guess you think PFT is cooler?
Sounds to
that what Doc is referring to as a "bond" requires no money up front? I am Okay with this. As long as I do not have to come to the game with cash.
Now, as I read it, money up front is "buying" a job. This is a bad thing. I would never this. I would far rather eat bamboo shoots like my cuz Panda! Yuck! 's need meat.
If slob driver wants to pay a company to hire him, that's his biz. Why stir up shit that happened at Millardair in the 70's? knows more than one Air Canada captain that worked for Millardair. thinks slob driver needs a hug? He sounds like a bitter man. He has had a hard time, and has been forced to sign bonds. Yes, he is bitter. And less than bright. I think.
Sounds to
that what Doc is referring to as a "bond" requires no money up front? I am Okay with this. As long as I do not have to come to the game with cash. Now, as I read it, money up front is "buying" a job. This is a bad thing. I would never this. I would far rather eat bamboo shoots like my cuz Panda! Yuck!
's need meat. If slob driver wants to pay a company to hire him, that's his biz. Why stir up shit that happened at Millardair in the 70's?
knows more than one Air Canada captain that worked for Millardair. thinks slob driver needs a hug? He sounds like a bitter man. He has had a hard time, and has been forced to sign bonds. Yes, he is bitter. And less than bright. I think. The best "Brown Bear" of them all!
Re: To Doc
Slow down sport. Before that big knot on you undies goes too far up your rectum, read my post....I clearly stated I don't THINK they were paid. I did not say they were not paid.Carrier wrote:Quote: “I believe that flying for free is as bad if not worse than being in a PFT scheme.”
I agree. It is probably worse because it seems to involve breaking the law. Employers are required to pay professional pilots at least the minimum wage. Parties cannot contract out of what is legally required. If you fly for free then you become an accessory to the employer breaking the law. You are aiding and abetting the employer.
Perhaps the legal types would like to comment on this.
And slob driver, this was in 1973! Henry Morgantaller was preforming illegal abortions and they gave him the Order of Canada! I still think anybody who pays money up front for a job is being really stupid.
Re: To Doc
slob driver wrote:Doc,
P.S.
I believe that flying for free is as bad if not worse than being in a PFT scheme. It completely sells us as pilots short and what we are trying to achieve.. i.e. put food on our table, pay our mortgage and have a little left over to go to Mexico!
Must have missed your point. I have never flown for free. BTW, Bearskin does require money up front. This is not a "bond". It's not, what you seem to insist on calling it PFT. If it were paying for training, they would give you a tax receipt. If, for example, you went out and bought a 767 type rating, you would get a tax receipt.
A "bond" is a pro rated promissory note, for a set amount. The longer you stay, the less you would owe if you were to leave. I think you know this.
And no, if it were up to me, I would not hire any pilot who had (what I call) bought a job. Prime example of poor decision making in my book. BTW, if I'm the one doing the hiring, my book is the only one that counts. I have no respect for companies that require this practice, and not a hell of a lot of respect for the pilots who make it possible for them to do so.
I do hope that's clear enough for you?
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Never Mind
- Rank 3
- Posts: 107
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2007 3:44 pm
Re: To Doc
slob driver,slob driver wrote:Hi Doc... I thought I would start a new thread... The reason that I ask you pointed questions about your stance on bonds, promissory notes etc. etc. is because it seems you are someone who is very black and white about your views on the bond/pay for training scheme. However in your earlier years you flew for, which means that you supported, one of the original pft outfits. Is this a fair comment to make? Does this mean that younger pilots should listen to the advice that you have to give them?
You would fare better if you walk away from this subject and don't look back. There are many subjects which are just not worth arguing about. Believe me life's too short to quibble over these matters.
If you believe a promissory note is a bad thing then just keep moving. If on the other hand your conscience allows you to lock an amount of money for a specific period of time in a training bond then go for it. I'm too old and have too many grey hairs to beat this dead horse.
Just move on,(just a suggestion)
Never Mind
Re: To Doc
Oh dear, Doc! I was quoting slob driver, not you. Please read the first sentence of his PS and then aim your bear gun the other way! Never mind, it must be getting late so have another G&T, ale or whatever.
I agree with your thoughts. I agree with slob driver’s comment on flying for free. It does happen. One place that comes up every year is Skydive Toronto. I am surprised that none of the numerous objectors and victims has taken it up with HRSDC. Perhaps they have and HRSDC has turned a blind eye for some reason or other. There are the same problems with HRSDC as there are with TCCA, but that is another story.
I agree with your thoughts. I agree with slob driver’s comment on flying for free. It does happen. One place that comes up every year is Skydive Toronto. I am surprised that none of the numerous objectors and victims has taken it up with HRSDC. Perhaps they have and HRSDC has turned a blind eye for some reason or other. There are the same problems with HRSDC as there are with TCCA, but that is another story.
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BibleMonkey
- Rank 8
- Posts: 903
- Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 1:23 am
Re: To Doc
Tomorrow I'm going to start a thread with a forum members name in the thread title and ask them about their sex life.
Okay. Not really. I'm being all ironic....this topic is valid-but this thread's intent is evidently a poorly veiled personal attack, covered in some smoke of pretended topical interest....
Private message someone if you're really interested -start a public thread about them if you're trying to hammer them.....
carry on. ......never mind...
Okay. Not really. I'm being all ironic....this topic is valid-but this thread's intent is evidently a poorly veiled personal attack, covered in some smoke of pretended topical interest....
Private message someone if you're really interested -start a public thread about them if you're trying to hammer them.....
carry on. ......never mind...
Re: To Doc
Doc i'm with you on this one.
Where do instructors fit into this though, since the rating has to be purchased or exchanged for a termed contract?
Where do instructors fit into this though, since the rating has to be purchased or exchanged for a termed contract?
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slob driver
- Rank 3
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- Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 6:01 pm
Re: To Doc
Doc,
Thanks for your honest posts. I agree with you on most items. I would like you to know that my intent was not to attack you personally, as someone has stated in an earlier post. I just wanted to discuss what I saw as inconsistencies in what you consider "right" and "wrong".
I do not agree with anyone's decision to work for a company that has pilots flying for free or would pay for training. But this does not mean that I would not buy them a beer if I met them in a bar. People can disagree and still get along.
Take care and safe flying,
Mark Baragar
Thanks for your honest posts. I agree with you on most items. I would like you to know that my intent was not to attack you personally, as someone has stated in an earlier post. I just wanted to discuss what I saw as inconsistencies in what you consider "right" and "wrong".
I do not agree with anyone's decision to work for a company that has pilots flying for free or would pay for training. But this does not mean that I would not buy them a beer if I met them in a bar. People can disagree and still get along.
Take care and safe flying,
Mark Baragar
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F/O Crunch
- Rank 3
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- Joined: Wed Nov 08, 2006 12:02 pm
- Location: The Jolly Roger
Re: To Doc
We might be getting a little over-kill with that one... Would you say the same about a float rating? Instrument rating?.... Pilot license??Tim wrote:Doc i'm with you on this one.
Where do instructors fit into this though, since the rating has to be purchased or exchanged for a termed contract?
Termed contract? Is that meant to imply a time commitment? I just don't think I have heard of an instructed locked into a time frame.(?) Setting aside the principle behind your question, I don't think there is a need to classify the morals of those who choose to teach.
Peace on earth
Sure is hot in these Rhinos
Re: To Doc
BibleMonkey wrote:Tomorrow I'm going to start a thread with a forum members name in the thread title and ask them about their sex life.
Shit! That's a bloody brilliant idea!
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
- Posts: 18921
- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: To Doc
Many moons ago I was working in Santiago Chile and became addicted to frequenting whore houses ( houses of Ill-repute to those of you who prefer things to be language sanitized )
Anyhow one night operating in a ouzo induced state of flat line brain condition I observed a show involving a toothless sheep and a well hung Chilean, I will not divulge whether I found this to be erotic or not but I believe it will get this new subject well under way.
Anyhow one night operating in a ouzo induced state of flat line brain condition I observed a show involving a toothless sheep and a well hung Chilean, I will not divulge whether I found this to be erotic or not but I believe it will get this new subject well under way.
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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freakonature
- Rank 5
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- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:36 pm
Re: To Doc
So if you sign a training bond,and meet the obligation's, at the end of the day you now have invested in yourself, time and money. Why,when you go to work for another company is that not worth your initial investment in some way? Should the next guy get your bond time and training for free? Does this not carry some value as a pilot move's up?
Re: To Doc
Are you saying we should perpetuate the species? You were dumb enough to get screwed, so the guy following you should get screwed as well?freakonature wrote:So if you sign a training bond,and meet the obligation's, at the end of the day you now have invested in yourself, time and money. Why,when you go to work for another company is that not worth your initial investment in some way? Should the next guy get your bond time and training for free? Does this not carry some value as a pilot move's up?
Kind of hope I got that wrong. Did I get it wrong?
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Cat Driver
- Top Poster
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- Joined: Sun Feb 15, 2004 8:31 pm
Re: To Doc
I thought we were going to talk about sex?
The hardest thing about flying is knowing when to say no
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
After over a half a century of flying no one ever died because of my decision not to fly.
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freakonature
- Rank 5
- Posts: 310
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 9:36 pm
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Liquid Charlie
- Rank (9)
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- Contact:
Re: To Doc
PFT, bonds, etc it's all the same - we've already established what your are, now we're haggling over price and everyone has a price.
IF a company is well run and treats it's employees like a valued asset, then said employee really shouldn't be using it as a quick stepping stone. Granted they likely will leave eventually, but for the employee to pay for the privledge of working there???? Are you guys wacked or what? That isn't the capatilist model at all....I don't know what the hell that is??? Slavery perhaps??
And money up front isn't the only way you pay. Kinda like buying a car and getting "rebates".
It's ALL in the price no matter how you cut it beit reduced salary, bonds, etc...
Very sad cause once a couple guys do it it really is all over.
IF a company is well run and treats it's employees like a valued asset, then said employee really shouldn't be using it as a quick stepping stone. Granted they likely will leave eventually, but for the employee to pay for the privledge of working there???? Are you guys wacked or what? That isn't the capatilist model at all....I don't know what the hell that is??? Slavery perhaps??
And money up front isn't the only way you pay. Kinda like buying a car and getting "rebates".
It's ALL in the price no matter how you cut it beit reduced salary, bonds, etc...Very sad cause once a couple guys do it it really is all over.
