8 Hours Sleep

[ncostello]

There has been a lot of chatter about how pilots who pay for a training bond are diluting the professionalism of our chosen profession and are creating an uneven playing field.

There is another issue that is of equal or greater importance that is coroding our profession. Duty time and more specifically time free from duty.

In a nutshell he C.A.R.S. state that in order to reset, one must have the opportunity to get 8 hours sleep. 8 HOURS SLEEP! This means that if wheels down is 23:00, There is no way you can check in for your next flight at 07:00. You have to be able to, complete any additionally assigned duties, drive to and from, eat, shower and then get 8 hours sleep.

It seems pretty standard that companies expect pilots to be available to check in for duty without considering any of the extra's. We are all responsible for this egregious abuse of regulations by accepting flights that do not allow us to get 8 hours sleep.

I have a couple of thoughts.

1) When Transport Canada decides or is pressured to examine this issue, it will be your responsibility, not the companies. You will get bent over, and no one will help you.

2) By choosing to ignore the letter and the spirit of the regulations we are devaluing our profession and may be reducing the number of pilot positions that are required to operate a company. (your buddy may be layed off due to the fact that u and the other few guys that operate your aircraft fly 1-2 flights a week that are illegal).

3) We all know that 8 hours available may not mean 8 hours actual sleep. At some point safety may actually be affected.

4) And... I guess there is the quality of life thing. This is a job and we have to work hard , sacrifice and try to build hours so that we can try and get a job where our life is more than just fly sleep fly. By accepting this situation we are all promoting an obvious violation of the regs.

Suggestions- Change it! Be reasonable but add some time to your rest for travel, additional duties required by your company (repositioning the ac {taxiing}, paperwork), eating, and a shower. If the number that you come up with is less than 1 hour you are probably in violation of the regs. If the time that you are actually in your house / apartment is less than 8.5 hours, you are probably in violation of the spirit of the regs.

[Flying Low]

Agreed.

The other issue with this is that your duty day may end when you stop the engines. This is how it is written in our Ops. Manual. Your rest should not start at this time. Luckily the company I work for marks down the time we "clear" (leave the base after getting fuel, putting the plane in the hanger or putting covers on, etc.) and adds 10 hours to get the earliest time we can be called out again. Basically this gives me 2 hours to get home, fed and take care of anything else I need to do, then 8 hours sleep. At the 10 hour mark they can call me for a flight and I have to be airborn in an hour.

[Changes in Latitudes]

Agreed.

The other issue with this is that your duty day may end when you stop the engines. This is how it is written in our Ops. Manual. Your rest should not start at this time. Luckily the company I work for marks down the time we "clear" (leave the base after getting fuel, putting the plane in the hanger or putting covers on, etc.) and adds 10 hours to get the earliest time we can be called out again. Basically this gives me 2 hours to get home, fed and take care of anything else I need to do, then 8 hours sleep. At the 10 hour mark they can call me for a flight and I have to be airborn in an hour.

10 hours is highly repectable, that's a good benchmark. It's also a good figure to shoot for if you want to have any chance at keeping good crews around your organization making decisions unimpaired by lack of sleep.

[Rockie]

This is the definition of minimum crew rest from CAR 101.01

"minimum rest period" - means a period during which a flight crew member is free from all duties, is not interrupted by the air operator or private operator, and is provided with an opportunity to obtain not less than eight consecutive hours of sleep in suitable accommodation, time to travel to and from that accommodation and time for personal hygiene and meals; (période de repos minimale)

For 704 and 705 operators 15 minutes post-flight duties are included in the duty time.

Believe it or not US rules are worse than ours in this regard and only provide for minimum 8 hours "rest", which operators routinely define as free from duty.

[Changes in Latitudes]

And what the hell are these circadian rhythms I hear so much about. If I am sitting around my house all day on call and the phone rings at 11pm for a 1am departure, I should have been sleeping all day.

[canpilot]

anywhere in the cars define suitable accomodation?


good post..

[Rockie]

anywhere in the cars define suitable accomodation?


good post..

Same place, CAR 101.01

"suitable accommodation" - means a single-occupancy bedroom that is subject to a minimal level of noise, is well ventilated and has facilities to control the levels of temperature and light or, where such a bedroom is not available, an accommodation that is suitable for the site and season, is subject to a minimal level of noise and provides adequate comfort and protection from the elements; (local approprié)

The CAR's guidance material expands on that definition as well:

(3)&(4)The minimum rest period requires that flight crew members are provided with an opportunity to obtain rest in suitable accommodation. The
definition of "suitable accommodation" is contained in CAR 101.01 Interpretation and refers to a single-occupancy bedroom with various conditions or, where such a bedroom is not available, an accommodation that is suitable for the site and season with various conditions. This second alternative refers to an accommodation that is typical for remote operations where the flight crew’s rest facility could be a tent or bunkhouse.

[flying4dollars]

CARS says 8 hours min rest, but most operators (don't know about all), state 9 or 10 in their SOP's with the 15 mins pre and post duty included. I agree it's not a lot when you're CONSISTENTLY time maxing and working exceedingly long hours with not a lot of time off work.

[Flying Low]

And what the hell are these circadian rhythms I hear so much about. If I am sitting around my house all day on call and the phone rings at 11pm for a 1am departure, I should have been sleeping all day.

Yep...this is one of those giant safety loopholes in the CARs for those of us on call. I use to try to take a nap in the afternoon if I hadn't been called by then. This worked ok when it was just me and the wife...now that I have a daughter...the nap usually doesn't happen.

This is never an ideal situation. You wake up at 8am and don't get called until 2pm (just before you plan on a nap). You are now good until 4am (based on a 14 hour duty day). Your last landing could take place after you have been awake for 20 hours. Even worse...you don't get the nap and get called at 6pm (or even later). You are good until 8am. Nothing like a 24hr day!

[Rockie]

Transport Canada does nothing to help us out here, especially on reserve. But they do say that you cannot go flying unless you are fit which means rested. So it is up to you to say no.

[Legacy]

Agreed.

The other issue with this is that your duty day may end when you stop the engines. This is how it is written in our Ops. Manual. Your rest should not start at this time. Luckily the company I work for marks down the time we "clear" (leave the base after getting fuel, putting the plane in the hanger or putting covers on, etc.) and adds 10 hours to get the earliest time we can be called out again. Basically this gives me 2 hours to get home, fed and take care of anything else I need to do, then 8 hours sleep. At the 10 hour mark they can call me for a flight and I have to be airborn in an hour.

10 hours is highly repectable, that's a good benchmark. It's also a good figure to shoot for if you want to have any chance at keeping good crews around your organization making decisions unimpaired by lack of sleep.

10 hours is even very questionable. To put it in perspective. Lets say you finish work at CYYC. You dirve home and since you live in the SW it takes 30 mins to get home. when you get home you are required to have the time to poop, shave, shower and eat. Right there is an hour easily. Now you are required to have a MINIMUM of 8 hours prone rest (and don't forget who the heck lies down and is immediately asleep). SO far we have chewed up 9.5 hours. Now you have ot get up in the morning and eat. say 20 mins and thats to prepare and eat so not much time 20mins is. So now you are at 9 hrs 50 mins. Lets say the traffic is extremely light (we all know in yyc that isn't true in the morning) and lets say its 30 mins back to work. Now you are at 10 hours and 20 mins. Now I didn't even allow for any time to shower in the morning or even any other personal hygiene which would have put us near 10 hrs 45-50 mins. From what I described there is no unreasonable requests for time, don't you think? So forf any companies out there in yyc that say 9 hrs (and we calgarians know who they are) you can see it is literally impossible and TC should be coming down there thoats for having those kinds of "time free from duty" in their COMs.

[canpilot]

herm..


Thanks rockie! Anything regarding eating or drinking within the 14 hours duty day. Are you allowed to get breakfast, lunch dinner?
Or can you theoretically go without eating or drinking according to the CARS

[Rockie]

herm..


Thanks rockie! Anything regarding eating or drinking within the 14 hours duty day. Are you allowed to get breakfast, lunch dinner?
Or can you theoretically go without eating or drinking according to the CARS

Nothing that I know of.

[FlaplessDork]

As an instructor I legally can fly till I passout from fatigue. Often I am flying by 0600 and finished at 2300. Some days I wasn't home till 0300 in the morning. I did this often 7 days a week. If they paid me more I wouldn't fly so long. I had a wife an a kid to support. Shouldn't there be duty limits for instructors?

[Jastapilot]

As an instructor I legally can fly till I passout from fatigue. Often I am flying by 0600 and finished at 2300. Some days I wasn't home till 0300 in the morning. I did this often 7 days a week. If they paid me more I wouldn't fly so long. I had a wife an a kid to support. Shouldn't there be duty limits for instructors?

Um, how is it an instructor is exempt?

[canpilot]

Rockie..

Thanks I hate that TC website.


TC,

Thank you for always protecting the working rights of pilots on Canada. They do such a dedicated and amazing job! Thank you TC!

[Cat Driver]

Remember there are different meanings to the word sleep.

For instance you were on an over night and when you got back home your wife finds out you had met a woman in the bar during your supper hour, the first question she will ask is did you sleep with her.

So it stands to reason there are different kinds of sleep some less restful than others.

[mattedfred]

this is one of the reasons that i prefer to work at a union shop. our CBA quite often exceeds the regulations which makes flight and duty times less of a concern.

[A Regulator]

Well I am surprised that no one picked up on the "single-occupancy bedroom" part of the CAR for the definition of "suitable accommodation" - means a single-occupancy bedroom that is subject to a minimal level of noise, is well ventilated and has facilities to control the levels of temperature and light or, where such a bedroom is not available, an accommodation that is suitable for the site and season, is subject to a minimal level of noise and provides adequate comfort and protection from the elements;

So...one could ask TC do I have to get a divorce? Do I have to sleep with my spouse? or better yet ask Revenue Canada if you can claim an addition to your home based on the requirements of the CARS for your job when you have to rest.

It could get interesting......

[Cap'n P8]

As an instructor I legally can fly till I passout from fatigue. Often I am flying by 0600 and finished at 2300. Some days I wasn't home till 0300 in the morning. I did this often 7 days a week. If they paid me more I wouldn't fly so long. I had a wife an a kid to support. Shouldn't there be duty limits for instructors?

Um, how is it an instructor is exempt?

AFAIK the CAR's only outline duty limitations for operations under 700. Instructing does not fall into this category. It is governed by Part IV.

[Invertago]

As an instructor I legally can fly till I passout from fatigue. Often I am flying by 0600 and finished at 2300. Some days I wasn't home till 0300 in the morning. I did this often 7 days a week. If they paid me more I wouldn't fly so long. I had a wife an a kid to support. Shouldn't there be duty limits for instructors?

Few thoughts on that... how is the quality of your instruction in the morning? Would you pay an instructor more to be awake in the aircraft with you, or would you take a discount to have one sleep beside you?

Are your hours setting a good example for those you teach?

If you have a wife and a kid depending on you do you have life insurance when your student takes you both into a tree in the overshoot while you where sleeping?

If you're willing to be away from home at work for those hours why not go up north and be away from home for more $?

There is not "controlled rest on the flight deck" when the guy in the left seat has his student pilot permit.

You agreed to work for wages you can't live off of, tell the boss you want a raise or leave. There are more instructing jobs being posted then most other types of flying positions these days. By accepting the low wages you are just contributing to the farce that is the instructing industry.

[Cat Driver]

AFAIK the CAR's only outline duty limitations for operations under 700. Instructing does not fall into this category. It is governed by Part IV.

Therefore those who work under part IV are inferior beings and do not need the same protection the 700 beings deserve according to TC?

[Invertago]

AFAIK the CAR's only outline duty limitations for operations under 700. Instructing does not fall into this category. It is governed by Part IV.

Therefore those who work under part IV are inferior beings and do not need the same protection the 700 beings deserve according to TC?

I like to think that TC figures instructors are big boys and can make the good decisions ourselves with out the need to have the extra regulation it's those big jet boys that need the hand holding

[Just another canuck]

Remember there are different meanings to the word sleep.

For instance you were on an over night and when you got back home your wife finds out you had met a woman in the bar during your supper hour, the first question she will ask is did you sleep with her.

So it stands to reason there are different kinds of sleep some less restful than others.

I think the CARS should allow pilots to substitute "real" sleep for the kind stated above with no penalty... it's only fair.

Ahh, who needs sleep anyway... I'm a pilot and therefore invincible.

Seriously though, we do need more rest... at least for 703/704... not too familiar with the other categories and how rough it may or may not be.

[Cat Driver]

Seriously though, we do need more rest... at least for 703/704... not too familiar with the other categories and how rough it may or may not be.

It matters not under which part of CAR's you fly you will suffer the same level of fatigue when your body needs rest, it is insidious and can not be measured by duty hours only.

The bottom line is you as a pilot must not fly when you are physically below par be it from sickness or fatigue.

On my last trip before I retired we had two long delays the first one almost three hours to have a component changed in Amsterdam, then we had another two and a half hour delay in Bagrum Turkey by the time we got back to Amsterdam we were zombies..still inside the duty hours but zombies.

As to instructors, fatigue hits you in two ways first it degrades your flying skills and second it degrades your teaching skills so based on that instructors should have lower duty time requirements.