AME "E" Class Avionics Career Advice

[Yutty]

Delete????

[tellyourkidstogetarealjob]

I'm an 'M' mechanic. If any avionics wants to contradict me, feel free.

Generally, the same is true for avionics as it is for 'M'.

Pay is usually about the same. 'M' outnumbers 'E' by about 8 or 10 to one. So the ads probably reflect more of a shortage in 'E' than for 'M'.

Most small companies do not have dedicated avionics. If you work for one of the big shops, you will probably travel as an 'E' mechanic. Mostly to places with Fort, Lake, or 'tuk', somewhere in their names. You might even get to go to overseas destinations like Sudan, Angola, or Democratic Republic of the Congo. If, however, you envision yourself sipping cafe au lait on the banks of the Seine or Rhone on your days off, you will probably be disappointed.

Is avionics the future of the industry? Yes and no. In other parts of the world, yes. In Canada, where 30 to 40 year old clapped out shite rules the skies, no. The good news is you'll see the current crop of avionics - just before you retire.

However, if you are going to get into aviation, I would have to say avionics is the better choice.

You might give Pacific Avionics at YVR a call. If they are not too busy someone might talk about the kind of work they do there.

I will make a couple of observations:

. . . but found I wasn't happy waking up 6am every day to -30 and more with windchill. . .

Then you probably won't enjoy going to bed at 6am every day to -30 and more with windchill.

. . . I can't see myself a grown as man doing 14 an hour, $16-18 more realistic???

Most of us couldn't see it either. But most of us saw it, nevertheless.

Before you commit to this, take a serious look at the Industrial Instrumentation & Controls Tech program at BCIT. If I was your age and had your interests I would be looking very hard at that program. A much brighter future than aviation. I suspect.

Good luck with your choice.

[dashx]

Here is the link for TC numbers:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/maint ... /stats.asp

[Yutty]

Thanks for the stats, the actual numbers seem kinda low in general.

& getrealjob I'd did a little research in the Industrial Instrumentation & Controls Technician and my main concern with that is the job market doesn't seem to be as easy to break into. I have not seen too many job posting for this position let alone apprentices, and the ones I did find relate alot to the oil & gas industry. I moved outa the prairies to kinda get a way from that field, and area. I'm not sure I see my self satisfied saying yeah I work in a plant doing this and that compared to saying something like yeah I worked on that helicopter.

I'm actually attending the core electronics at BCIT in the fall with the avionics option to follow so I still got plenty of time to actually make my decision to switch if I do. Is it a false assumption to think that I have a better chance at getting a job at the airport in van or perhaps the aero industries out in richmond or the other avionics shops compared to finding a job working as Industrial Instrumentation & Controls Technician in vancouver?? since eventually I'd like to settle down here in future after I'm tired of bouncing around??

I'm ok with going to bed 6AM to -30 if I get sent up north, Since you get sent up there for a couple months or so right??? Isn't the pay worth the trip?? I've heard you get paid extra when you get sent places is this true?? The problem I had with the oilfield industry wasn't just the weather but also it was hard manual labor day in day out in it. Many of the older guys had complaints bout getting worn out and missing a lot of time with the people they loved. I know the aviation industry involves alot of OT and shift work but isn't there a decent chance I would be able to land a job with a steady shift after getting licensed with 5-10 years experience??

Anyways keep the info coming its definitely helping..

[dashx]

I'd say to stay with the avionics program, do the 18 months, get your E licence because you can always take the ICS (Thomson) course for the M licence. Of course that means 4 years of work but.....you're working. And you know what to expect if you ever need to go back to school.

If you get a job with a company where you can get exposed to both M and E work you will be in a better position when it comes time to get your logbook signed off.

[tellyourkidstogetarealjob]

When I was in school I thought a steady shift might be easy to get after 5 or 10 years. I'm still waiting for one. You might get lucky but I won't give you false hope to expect it.

Most road trips in this industry are short term. A few hours to a few days. They usually happen with very little notice.

I've never been paid extra for being on the road. Most companies pay per diems and some guys look upon that as a bonus. Getting excited about a $50 per diem is not a good reflection on pay & benefits levels in the industry.

I HAVE had the thrill of arguing to get full pay for a road trip:

"Telly, why did you charge a full day yesterday when you spent half the day napping on an aircraft?".

"Do you mean the flight I took to get to the job? I charge you for that because it's hours away from my family and stuff I want to do. If you don't want to pay my travel time, get someone else."

Grumbling as they walk away, "Well, I don't see why we should pay that. After all, you got a free meal on the plane, didn't you?"

*****************************************************************************************************

Every job has it's downside, of course. I did construction before aviation and there's no doubt it's a lot more demanding physically than aviation ever is.

One thing aviation seems to excel at is a total lack of gratitude. At some point in your career you will be faced with a 24+ hour shift. I've done a 28 hour shift a couple of times. I know people who've done longer shifts. I've also exceeded 130 hours in a week on a couple of occasions (yes, I know there's only 168 hours in a week) What you do once to get the job done quickly becomes expected. If you complain about 16 or 18 hour shifts you get looked at like a wimp.

I have had the experience - several times and with different employers - of walking in a few minutes late to work after completing a 17 or 18 hour night (or series of 17 hour nights) the day before. I've been questioned closely as to where I was. When your temper is already short from lack of sleep it's very hard to control yourself from grabbing the fool by the throat and screaming, "Where the f*ck do you think I was?"

Some industries would send you home to rest if you tried showing up the next day after unusually long shifts. Not aviation, ever.

Overtime in this industry is rarely voluntary. If you don't do it, expect repercussions.

[bombardierfixer]

I was watching on the news about sleep deprivation. They had a EMT stay up for twenty hours, he did his shift but then just kept himself awake for the rest then they had him do some tests. He did fine, accredidited to his years of shift work blah blah blah. Not to marginilize emt's they have a hell job too and should be recognized for it, But as Telly said we do that on a fairly regular basis, the scariest part is after 17hrs they say you have the equivelent decision making skills as a person with a .08-.10 blood alcohol level. We've all gone way past that 17hr mark. I guess we should thank our stars it hasn't come back to bite all of us. I think the lack of appreciation is why I enjoy contracting, you come bust your balls but its just for the invoice because when you are done you walk away...Do your job, leave, littlest hobo style.

[Pat Richard]

the scariest part is after 17hrs they say you have the equivelent decision making skills as a person with a .08-.10 blood alcohol level. We've all gone way past that 17hr mark. I guess we should thank our stars it hasn't come back to bite all of us.

Yet. It's the "yet" part that scares me, because having experienced almost all that has been mentioned above, I can't help but wonder when it will bite me in the ass. Sure as shit the employer will totally point the finger at me, and step away, and then hire the next schlep waiting in line.
Will sure put that awesome wage into perspective.

Here's a tip boys and girls..Google "night shift studies" and give yourselves a good fright. Anyone who claims they're "used" to nights is in denial.

[Yutty]

Well I've had my fair share of 12-16 hour shifts and even a 25 shift (once) in the oilfield industry but my employers were usually pretty understanding about things since they've all been there and know what we go through.

I'm not too sure I would want to work for a employer who couldn't understand why I'm a few mins. late after a rough week. Yeah it's easy to enough to find someone to fill my spot, but I know its hard to find a "really good" employee. Seen many people come & go no one enjoys working with dog fuckers all the time. Every job that I have left, they've always wanted me to stay and even gave me raises to stay a couple months longer. Don't get me wrong I definitely had to put up with shit sometimes.

The contract thing does interest me & so does working as an employee, both have ups & downs. Is it wrong for me to think when an employer treats employees good they get high quality work and vice versa regarding the aviation industry?? Or is the majority of time you spend working, your putting up with bull shit from management??????

[Yutty]

!

[bombardierfixer]

It depends, for myself I have yet to face some of the horror stories that you hear on the forums. I think you will know if you are in a place that will burn you any chance they get, and its really up to you if you wanna stay, right? I only did line for a year and it was the most I had ever worked, I actually got burnt out and I was told to quit by my doctor, and from the stories it wasn't half as bad as it can get, so maybe a heavy environment is better, I dunno thats what I prefer.

It's also how you present yourself too, if you go in as a floor mat your gonna get walked all over but if you stand your ground they may not be as apt to try to push you around. If your coming from the patch you probably don't have a hard time standing up for yourself.

But don't leave the industry, your going to be needed in a couple years. This recession is going to chase guys out that won't come back, I'm sitting on my couch right now but customers I have talked to have the work piling up at their doors just everyone is sitting on their cash right now and they are worried if when the "start bell" rings that there is going to be enough people to do the work. I'm still a idealist like I have said so take what I say with a grain of salt, I try to look at my glass half full, but I don't mind taking my glass away either.

[dashx]

Do companies send E classes overseas

If you had an E licence right now and wanted to travel....there's work out there. You might not like the company, you might not like the pay, you might not like the location but the work is there.

If there are any unemployed licenced E AME's out there speak up.

[Yutty]

But don't leave the industry, your going to be needed in a couple years. This recession is going to chase guys out that won't come back, I'm sitting on my couch right now but customers I have talked to have the work piling up at their doors just everyone is sitting on their cash right now and they are worried if when the "start bell" rings that there is going to be enough people to do the work. I'm still a idealist like I have said so take what I say with a grain of salt, I try to look at my glass half full, but I don't mind taking my glass away either.

Is this in regards to general aviation and M's or will E's & technicians also be needed???

[bombardierfixer]

Oh I have no idea about GA stuff and like I have said before I'm afraid of the owner/pilot/accounts payable person. I'm talking commercial stuff. Correct me if I am wrong (cause I know you will) but as far as I know a straight E guy has a better chance in a big MRO than in a little GA shop, unless you like bench work.

[Yutty]

Hate to sound like a newbie but I'm guessing GA stands for "General Avionics"? & MRO is "Management Run Operation"?

[yyz monkey]

GA - General Aviation
MRO - Maintenance, Repair & Overhaul

[bombardierfixer]

Sorry, what YYZ said.

[Yutty]

[palebird]

M 's can do all E work if they like...Only thing is most employers want an E license to do the work because they have far more faith in an E license doing an avionic job correctly...

[log sheet]

recently discovered that AME's with M1 & M2 are able to sign off on all E stuff

Be careful, it's not as simple as that! The CAR's state that if you have M1,M2 no other rating will be issued , to hold an ACA and release E or S Specialized Maintenance you have to have Specialized Traing and experience. A Course and experience. I've spent time checking the in's and out's as I held an E Licence for a number of years and now M1,M2.
Cheers!

[Vickers vanguard]

M 's can do all E work if they like...Only thing is most employers want an E license to do the work because they have far more faith in an E license doing an avionic job correctly...

really? most M1/M2, unless they had a formal Avionic training ( this also apply to a good 50% of the avionic techs ) would not be able to do a simple avionic task such as fully testing the various mode of a mode s transponder(I’m not talking about a simple correlation test)......and that's just an example of my head...I could name you dozens like that. most have no clue of the working theory and failure modes of various radios and pulse nav equipment, so give me a break. I keep hearing mechanics bitching all day long about the E guys. But when it comes to troubleshoot real avionic snags, they can't do the job. Now, if you work at place where the E guys do install after install, or you see them swapping boxes.....that's chicken shit that most people can do, although, a proper install needs some good experience and a good knowledge of techniques and tools use. M1/M2 gives the ability to sign E specialized work ? Good for the M1/M2 holder, I hope you get a good bonus for signing something you probably didn't do nor have the ability to fully verify the soundness of the work done.
I used to be a mechanic and switched to avionics in 2002, so you don't need to start a M1/M2 vs. E pissing match. Everyone has its own expertise, most people that downplay the E work, it's because they have never got involved with avionics and therefore have no bloody idea what they're talking about.

[bombardierfixer]

Just because you can sign for it dosn't mean you can actually do the task. I think M1 guys are more jack of all trades then the other ratings, cause I'm pretty sure in GA one day its timing a mag, next day its patching a fuse and the next its fixing radios. But some people get into pissing matches about their little section of maintenance but in the end it takes all of us to get it done.

[dashx]

Ratings.

(a) The scope of maintenance release privileges will be indicated by rating designators entered on the licence, as follows:

(i) M1: Non-turbojet aircraft built to CAR 522, 523, 523-VLA, 527, 549 and equivalent standards (includes all airframe, engines, propellers, components, structures, and systems of those aircraft), and the aircraft listed in paragraph 566.03(8)(b).
(amended 2003/09/01; previous version)

(ii) M2: All aircraft not included in M1 (excluding balloons) (includes all airframes, engines, propellers, components, structures, and systems of those aircraft), and the aircraft listed in paragraph 566.03(8)(b).
(amended 2003/09/01; previous version).

(iii) E: Aircraft electronic systems. (includes communication, pulse, navigation, auto flight, flight path computation, instruments and the electrical elements of other aircraft systems, and any structural work directly associated with the maintenance of those systems);

(iv) S: Aircraft structures. (includes all airframe structures);

(v) Balloons.

And here is your link:

http://www.tc.gc.ca/CivilAviation/Regse ... s/566s.htm

M 's can do all E work if they like

Palebird: Can they sign it off? It all depends on what kind of E work it is.

But when it comes to troubleshoot real avionic snags, they can't do the job

That's because that's what E licences are for.

The E licence allows you to sign off the work you did on the A/C. The M1/M2 licence (along with an endorsement - depending on A/C type) allows you to sign off the work you did as well as releasing the A/C back to service.

(Ok argue that one for a while)

most have no clue of the working theory and failure modes of various radios and pulse nav equipment

I am not a teacher and I never expected to be teaching others the theory behind systems. Unfortunately I now find myself doing just that.

VV: Where did you get your formal training for avionics? Did you go back to school? Did your present (or past) employer send you out on courses (let's say on how to use Barfield DPS 400 or any other pitot static tester). Did you pick up your troubleshooting skills along the way doing M1/M2 work on your own or by working with others?

Palebird: same questions for you.

I keep hearing mechanics bitching all day long about the E guys

Not where I work.

These days the newer A/C require specialized equipment. That means specialized training. Big $$$. Most companies will not pay to have both M and E get the training.

in the end it takes all of us to get it done

Yes. Yes it does.

So Yutty:

Whats the demand outlook these in the next 3 years and on?????
Is avionics worthing getting into?? Job stability

It will be there. Yes. Depends on your intelligence/motivation/willpower/determination

Oi!

[Yutty]

stalker

[bombardierfixer]

Just because you weren't a stellar student is in no way to consdider yourself not for avionics. I was a rotten student in High School. I did okay in college and Uni, I aced AME school. It just comes down to how much you enjoy the subject. Some of the classes are going to be stupid boring, some are fun. I think it just comes down to when you are ready/willing to learn, thats when you become that straight A student. And all the school really teaches you is not to look like a complete idiot on day one...yet some people do...

Don't let the forums discourage you.