Mil or Non Mil

[shinysuitman]

Hi. I'm currently 16 in Grade 11 in Toronto. This all started with MSFS in 2005. Since then I've flown 1000 VATSIM hrs and just recently went for my Intro Flight. I have 0.9 hrs logged (only 1499 to go!) I hope to attend one of the University CPL programs in Ontario. My first choice is Western, 2nd Waterloo, 3rd Seneca. I was debating whether to pursue the military option.This is alot of speculation and is pretty far off but I could use some good input.

Currently my parents can cover me full ride through those programs but I need to build time somewhere. I have a few goals and a few fears about my choices.

My biggest goal is to Fly 777 or 787 for ACA eventually

My fear if I let the forces pay my training is

1.I fail flight training and I end up in infantry or something like that (worst)
2.I get selected for choppers (My ideal choice would be CC-150 (A310), or CC-177 (C-17), but I wouldn't mind the C-130) or a CF-18)
3.I end up enslaved for years in the CF with no way out


My fear if I don't join is.
1.I'll end up with a job at some little carrier in the far away from home with no potential for advancement
2. It will take a really long time to build time for the airlines
3. I wont have a job



I can list a few advantages I can think of

1. I can speak Spanish (if it helps anywhere)
2. I have triple citizenship (Canada,US,Belize) I hear TropicAir hires alot of foreigners

Thanks for your help and please inform me politely if I have no clue of what I'm talking about.

[767]

Well, if you decide to go to military, im pretty sure that there wont be any time for "fun" besides flying F 16's, or whatever they fly these days. They are very strict.

As for the civilian side of it, ill leave it to others to post their opinions.

All i want to say is, when you come in the industry, it will be easier if you set goals for yourself prior to beginning any training. Good luck.

[Hedley]

Buy a C152 and run as much gas through the
engine as fast as you can, then sell it.

P.S. You are NOT too young to start NOW. My 16
year old kid soloed when he was 14 in our Maule,
and now flies aerobatics and formation in our Pitts.
I think he's got around 300 hours of tailwheel time
now. He should have no problem getting his CPL
and single IFR and class 4 instructor by the time
he finishes high school.

[pilotman15]

I've been told by an airforce recruiter that current requirements to join for a flying position involves having a University degree, why not take the government subsidized route, a.k.a. sault or seneca if the airlines are your dreams and save mommy and daddy some cash.

[just curious]

Of your six fears, 3 Forces and 3 non-Forces, #2 Helos, is a bonafide fear, but not having flown helos, you might find it cool. There are ex-Forces Helo pilots in the ranks of Air Canada.

Of your civilian fears all three are real possibilities.

Looking at worst case scenarios, getting enslaved after washing out of flying and being forcefully enrolled in the Infantry. (pretty unlikely): You emerge from the CF five years after enrolling. You have a commission, a degree, no debt, the 200 hours of civilian time, and 150 hours of fixed-wing harvard II time. You are 25.

Best case: You get winged, and do all your seven years after being winged on transports (Herc, DHC-6, Airbus). You have a degree, are tri-lingual, have no debt, and 3500 hours of large turbine IFR Glass time, internationally, plus you civilian and military flight training time of 450 hours combined. You now meet the requirements of AC, Jazz, First Air, WestJet, Sunwing. You are 27. Your reserve job pays 25000 a year till 55, then you get a pension.

You avoid this, go straight civilian, get no scholarships. You have a degree, 250 hours and 45000 in debts. You get on as a ramp rat (Wasaya, Perimeter, Tindi). The economy stays flat. You remain on the ramp 3 years. You have to renew your IFR yourself. You get a co-pilot seat, finally, and after 3 years are ready to upgrade. You have 3000 hours, no glass time. Not trilingual, no command time. 55000 in debt. You are 27. You have no pension.

[AuxBatOn]

JC, pilots owe 7 years after wings. We start flight training after a degree and a 1-2 years wait. So, we finish school at 22, start flight training at 24. Add 7 years, that'd 31. Now, during your 7 years, you do 1 full flying tour, 1 ground tour and 1/2 of a flight tour, so a total of 4 years flying. At 500 hours a year that's 2000 hours (that's if you fly a LOT).

Military isn't a time builder. IMO, if you're willing to do it and you think you'll enjoy flying in the military, by all means do it. However, if you do it ONLY for time building, you may be in for a world of hurt.

[Skyhunter]

Last I heard, for Pilots don't need a degree to get into Air Force, but you are supposed to get one part time, if you join. I will try and find this out for sure, but I say with about 95% confidence.

The Air Force is a great way to go but,,,,

1. Yes you could end up Helo's, if your not prepared to accept that, don't join.

2. If you get transport, your first tour will probably be a Herc. But we are getting J Models all glass.

3. Unless you really want to be a fighter pilot, don't go for fighters (it is rare to get send fighters if you don't want it). It is a lot of work, the flying hours are low but it is a great job for certain kind of people. But the reason to not go is not about flying. You have to be the kind of person willing to accept that you could go drop bombs on people. You could get sent where you will be shot at. You really have to be there cause you want to for it. If you don't, and you don't give it 100% you could get the guys your flying with killed. Fighters is not a place to time build for a civy career, nuff said.

4. End up in infantry,,, not unless you want to. Worse case you fail pilot training, you owe 3 years after completing basic training. You already probably have 2-2.5 years of that done doing all the various pre courses (survival, portage etc). You spend up to 6 months doing some menial office job. You would not be transferred to infantry unless you asked for it! You still have whatever flying hours you got.

Really make a decision on fact, go talk to a recruiter yourself! Have a list of questions when you go. Have a copy to give to them.

from the CF recruiting cite

In addition, there is a new Continuing Education Officer Training Program (CEOTP) for applicants with a high school diploma, with the understanding that they will complete a degree while a serving member. This program is open to skilled pilots and former CF Pilots. For more info, please contact the nearest CFRC or call 1-800-856-8488.
http://www.forces.ca/html/pilotofficer_reg_en.aspx

Go there read it.

Which path is best for you is ultimately your decision. After college I went military but many friends went civy. Neither was right or wrong but right for us. There is a rewarding career in all of it. My best advice, get all the facts, make sure they are right, and then make a decision based on your situation.

[mcrit]

AuxBat and SkyHunter make some good points. I'm going to address a different issue.

My biggest goal is to Fly 777 or 787 for ACA eventually

The Forces are not a fast track to an airline, they are a commitment to a way of life.

My fear if I let the forces pay my training is

1.I fail flight training and I end up in infantry or something like that (worst)
2.I get selected for choppers (My ideal choice would be CC-150 (A310), or CC-177 (C-17), but I wouldn't mind the C-130) or a CF-18)
3.I end up enslaved for years in the CF with no way out

As for fear number one, very possible. However, the chances of you being sent combat arms against your will are slim (given that you have to have a lot of drive to be even adequate at that job). A more realistic worst case scenario is that you will fail pilot training and wind up behind a desk as a PAFO.

As for fear number two, very possible. About half of the guys go Helo, and about 80% of them go TACHEL, which means hanging around with the infantry in the field (mud, cold, and rations).

Fear number three......all I can say is that if you see military service as enslavement then it is not the place for you. It takes drive and determination to make it through to pilot training. Are you willing to spend about a month running around the bush in the rain in early March, getting about 5hrs sleep a week? Are you willing to run through ice water up to your balls (or vajayjay as the case may be), then crawl through sand, then strap on a ruck and run up and down sand dunes for a few hours? How do you feel about being dropped into the ocean and dragged behind a boat, salt water going down your throat, and up your nose, and you know that if you don't get out of that harness you will be dragged until, (as the Sarge put it), "... you stop moving"? How do you feel about eating ants? ...spending 3 days in the middle of winter sitting beside a frozen lake in northern Manitoba will no food except what you can find/catch/kill for yourself? This is all the stuff you have to do before you hit pilot training.
Pilot training is no picnic. You are only ever 2 bad flights from going home. It is stressful. When I was there there was one successful and one attempted suicide.
Please don't take what I have written here as me dumping on you, that is not my intention. A lot of young guys join the Forces as pilots because they think it is all Tom Cruise type stuff and a quick ticket to the airlines. I just wanted to make sure that you knew what you are getting yourself into if you do decide to join.
There are alot of positives to being a pilot in the Forces. There is a sense of camaraderie that you just to get other places. The training is top notch and you get to do things that most civilian pilots never do.
Think long and hard about what you really want.

[Hedley]

Right - if all you want to do is fly, go civilian. The military
wants people who are officers first, pilots second. Any
doubts in your mind - and it appears you have plenty -
the military isn't for you.

And in the civilian world, don't waste your money on a college,
unless you live in Ontario and can get subsidized flight training
(it's worth moving there, IMHO).

If you can't get your flight training for free, courtesy of the
Ontario taxpayers, buy a 152, and start building hours! If
you buy the right aircraft (good, low-time engine and ok
avionics, paint and interior) you can probably sell it for about
what you paid for it.

[VikVaughan]

And in the civilian world, don't waste your money on a college

That might not be the best advice for someone that has firm and pre decided desire to fly for AC. I've been told by more than one individual that it is a fairly well weighted in the organizations candidate selection metrics. Besides, education is never a waste of money.





On a separate item, I have something that I am very curious about. This is not meant as criticism, but I have been pondering this question for a while:

Why do so many people seem to approach aviation with the statement "I want to fly for Air Canada"?

As a person who could imagine themselves being just as happy flying a Twin Otter in the middle of nowhere as an A340 out of Pearson, and has no desire to do one more or less than the other in the future, I just don't get it. Is it the aircraft type that draws people to AC? Is it the company its self? The patriotism in flying for the defacto national carrier?

It almost feels like there is more of a love with the image of being an airline pilot, or working at a certain company, than for the love of airplanes and flying it's self. Please correct me if this is not the case.

[beast]

Well, if you want to fly 767's, 777's and 787's to Hong Kong, Paris, London, Rome, Frankfurt, Singapore, theres AC - if you like big jets, great pay, schedule and international travel its your primary choice in Canada

and yeah, post-secondary is quite important for applying at AC - I bet one day they'll switch over to requiring a degree, like Canadian did and the American majors do

[Hedley]

education is never a waste of money

Clearly you have never attended a University. I graduated
Queen's University at Kingston (BSc, Engineering) and I think
it was fair to say that half of the people there at the time
were wasting their time, and their parents money, studying
something they had no real interest in. I really doubt anything
has changed in the decades since then.

I stand by my statement that "aviation college is a waste of
money". Don't bother with a diploma. If you want post-secondary
qualifications, get a real degree from a real University.

P.S. What determines whether or not you get hired by
the majors is the year you were born. When you're looking
for work, if the economy is in a deep recession, it doesn't
matter if you have ten thousand hours, three moon landings,
and perfect teeth and tan, nobody's getting hired. Other
times, when the economy is red-hot, if you can see lightning
and hear thunder, you're in.

Just as in real estate that location is everything, in
aviation, timing is everything. Unless you don't mind
starving for 10 years. Most people with bad timing
don't enjoy that very much for some reason, and
move onto other careers, and never look back.

[iflyforpie]

Why do so many people seem to approach aviation with the statement "I want to fly for Air Canada"?

Actually I wanted to fly for Canadian. I liked the DC10s. I wanted the uniform. The pay. The benefits. The travel privileges. To be up in the front with all the blinky lights and cruising at the flight levels off to some exotic destination, soaking in the sunshine above the clouds while everyone else around YVR was getting drenched.

So here I am ten years later. Canadian is gone. I could fly a DC-10 if I went to back work for Flightcraft, but I don't really want to. The Air Canada uniforms are pretty, but I like showing up to work in a hoodie and jeans. The pay definitely isn't here, but at least it is steady with no concessions or layoffs. I don't get to jet off to exotic destinations, but I get to fly company aircraft for personal use. I've seen more than enough blinky lights as an AME so I don't really have the desire to fly something with more buttons and screens. And when I am up at the flight levels, it means I am on vacation, not doing a jet lagged layover that isn't long enough to see anything and without any friends or family.

I would have loved to do the military route if my vision was good enough. I wouldn't mind doing airlines if the process to get there didn't involve the levels of poverty that are currently required. I would have loved to go rotary wing, but the price tag was too high and I wasn't really into the whole bush thing with a growing family.

Remember that dreams change and sometimes for the better. No way I would want to be bottom man on the totem pole at Air Canada right now.

Best of luck whatever you do shinysuitman. It is good that you are thinking about these choices now instead of wasting time like I did in school.

[VikVaughan]

education is never a waste of money

Clearly you have never attended a University. I graduated
Queen's University at Kingston (BSc, Engineering)

Try again . McMaster University, B.Eng.

I think it was fair to say that half of the people there at the time
were wasting their time, and their parents money, studying
something they had no real interest in. I really doubt anything
has changed in the decades since then.

However, many of those people are earning an income that pays the cost of that degree 2 to 5 fold every year. By definition, that is not a waste of money. Some of those students likely enjoyed their studies very much and took a lot away from it - not a waste of money. A few others likely chose other paths after discovering it wasn't for them. They have a fall back should they ever need it - not a waste of money. All of them left more knowledgeable and capable than when they began, and (in my world at least), that is far from a waste.

I stand by my statement that "aviation college is a waste of
money".

Actually, your statement was:

And in the civilian world, don't waste your money on a college,
unless you live in Ontario and can get subsidized flight training
(it's worth moving there, IMHO).

So infact, your statement was that any college EXCEPT the aviation colleges is a waste of money.


I still stand by my statement that education is never a waste of money, and even more so if you're studying something you genuinely have an interest in.

[VikVaughan]

Well, if you want to fly 767's, 777's and 787's to Hong Kong, Paris, London, Rome, Frankfurt, Singapore, theres AC - if you like big jets, great pay, schedule and international travel its your primary choice in Canada

Those are all very valid reasons come to think of it. I can't disagree that things such as pay and schedule would be important factors. I wonder if these are the things that are being considered by new pilots (of which I am one, so take my words lightly). I think I'm guilty of initially forming an image in my head when I hear the typical phrase "I want to work for AC" as someone who is going to hate every bit of the journey and merely sees everything between now and 10 years as an inconvenience they had to be bothered with to get to the holy grail that is Air Canada. Maybe this isn't true.


But for those that do see it that way, that new MPL license might be the greatest thing that ever happened for you. 0 experience to airline right seat in 1.5 years. Take a look: http://www.tc.gc.ca/civilaviation/general/MPL/menu.htm

[CanadianEh]

Hi. I'm currently 16 in Grade 11 in Toronto. This all started with MSFS in 2005. Since then I've flown 1000 VATSIM hrs and just recently went for my Intro Flight. I have 0.9 hrs logged (only 1499 to go!) I hope to attend one of the University CPL programs in Ontario. My first choice is Western, 2nd Waterloo, 3rd Seneca. I was debating whether to pursue the military option.This is alot of speculation and is pretty far off but I could use some good input.

Currently my parents can cover me full ride through those programs but I need to build time somewhere. I have a few goals and a few fears about my choices.

My biggest goal is to Fly 777 or 787 for ACA eventually

My fear if I let the forces pay my training is

1.I fail flight training and I end up in infantry or something like that (worst)
2.I get selected for choppers (My ideal choice would be CC-150 (A310), or CC-177 (C-17), but I wouldn't mind the C-130) or a CF-18)
3.I end up enslaved for years in the CF with no way out


My fear if I don't join is.
1.I'll end up with a job at some little carrier in the far away from home with no potential for advancement
2. It will take a really long time to build time for the airlines
3. I wont have a job



I can list a few advantages I can think of

1. I can speak Spanish (if it helps anywhere)
2. I have triple citizenship (Canada,US,Belize) I hear TropicAir hires alot of foreigners

Thanks for your help and please inform me politely if I have no clue of what I'm talking about.

You sound a lot like me, haha. I was considering military for a while, but I had the EXACT same concerns are you. In the end, I applied to Western, Waterloo and Seneca (I had the same order as you in terms of preference). I got accepted to Western and that's where I'm going in Sept. I had a 90% average after mid term. Best of luck and hope to see you at Western in a couple

[Jercules]

Absolutley nothing wrong with joining the military with the intention of leaving after your obligatory service is up. Is it an effective way to get on with Air Canada? It absolutely can be, but is completely dependant on whether your release from the mil coincides with hiring in the civilian sector. Timing is everything.

Good luck

[Hedley]

that new MPL license might be the greatest thing that ever happened for you

Now I have coffee all over my keyboard .... I suppose some people
might think that herpes was the best thing that ever happened to
them, but I really doubt it

NEWSFLASH

The world-wide economy is in freefall - the worst since WWII. If
that doesn't make you nervous about airline hiring - or your pilot
job - it should, and welcome to your first recession. Hang on tight,
this one is going to be a bad one - worse than 1980.

The last thing that airlines are going to need, are low-time MPL's
who are going to be completely useless for any other job when
they get furloughed.

[VikVaughan]

Hedley, I think you took my comment regarding the MPL a little too seriously

[mcrit]

Hed, much as it pains me to say it, I think you are spot on about where this economy is heading. I think it's gonna get real bad (I keep the SKS clean and a case of 7.62 in the house ). Your comments about education are off the mark. Even though a good many people at University are just there because someone told them to get a degree, stuff still gets into their brains and expands them by osmosis.

Absolutley nothing wrong with joining the military with the intention of leaving after your obligatory service is up.

I would agree, but with some caveats. If you want to use the military to further your career, that is fine. Many fine people have done that. Just understand that while you are in, you will be expected to go where you are told, do what you are told and give 110%.

Why do so many people seem to approach aviation with the statement "I want to fly for Air Canada"?

Good question. I think its just because they don't know what else is out there. I started instructing with that goal in mind, but the more I saw of line pilot flying, (take off, fly straight and level for a long time, watch the a/p do the approach), the less interested I became in it. The more I instructed, the more I liked it. I would have stuck with instructing if it paid decently. The trick in flying is finding a job that has interesting flying and that pays well. It seems you usually have to trade one off for the other.

[Shiny Side Up]

Its also because when your average parent in this country thinks their child wants to grow up and be a pilot, they're hoping that that child is shooting for what they would view as the top end of that profession - Captain on an airliner. If most people really concieved of how the aviation world works it wouldn't be the case. Our 16 year old here - unless they are considerably more well travelled than your average Canadian at that age - has probably only the knowledge of two airlines in this country, AC and WJ.

[Hedley]

Your comments about education are off the mark

That may be, but in my life I have met guys with Phd's that
were dumber than dogsh1t, and really bright guys that may
or may not have graduated high school. Neither Bill Gates
nor Einstein were stellar students, but both were incredibly
bright, and both changed the world.

It's important to separate education - and knowledge - from
intelligence. Google knows more than any of us, but it's also
not too good at solving problems.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-University - far from it, I
learned an incredible amount there - I just question whether
or not everyone really benefits from it.

Particularly people who just want to drive airplanes. Driving
airplanes is a valuable skill, just like welding, painting and
plumbing, but no reputable institution is about to give you
a degree in ANY of the above.

I just remember so many kids at University because their
parents wanted them to be there. They were taking something
they really didn't give a sh1t about. What a waste.

[iflyforpie]

It's important to separate education - and knowledge - from
intelligence. Google knows more than any of us, but it's also
not too good at solving problems.

Bingo! The difference between intelligence and wisdom. A lot of people are book smart, life stupid. It is great to have education, but you have to know how to apply it to be successful.

[L1011]

I just remember so many kids at University because their
parents wanted them to be there. They were taking something
they really didn't give a sh1t about.

Nothing's changed, Hedley!

shinysuitman check your PM's.

[Shiny Side Up]

I just remember so many kids at University because their
parents wanted them to be there. They were taking something
they really didn't give a sh1t about. What a waste.

Mind you I know quite a few Private Pilot and Commercial Pilot students out there who are in the same boat. There's a lot of people out there who should spend a few months working on a service rig so they can decide to do something useful with their lives.