Hey there public...welcome to our dirty little secret

[ivanhoe]

Airline officials acknowledged at the hearing that Ms. Shaw, 24, was paid at a rate of about $23 (U.S.) an hour and had a salary of $16,254, although she could have earned more if she worked extra hours. She previously had a second job working in a coffee shop.







R. M. from Regina, Canada writes: Tragic accident and we are learning more and more about unsafe working conditions in the airline industry. As for salaries, too bad these folks had not heard about assembly line work at Canada's automobile plants. Obviously that kind of work is much higher skilled and difficult to warrant higher wages than an airline pilot or co-pilot.
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:36 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Chris Turner from Saskatoon, Canada writes: The rate of pay for ground crew and flight crew, especially on smaller airlines is an unfortunate fact that may be one of the final weak links in the air transport chain. It is hard to convince the best and brightest to work, and care when being paid so little...
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:48 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Republic of Saturn from Canada writes:
Can't believe she earns such small salary, a truck driver earns much more than that. A pilot needs extensive training and qualification, they deserve the decent pay with so many people's lives are at the stake.
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:49 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Arron D from Canada writes: R.M. I don't think she would have qualified... she was motivated, interested and could spell 'career' right at least 3 out of 5 times. UAW would never have accepted her. " not really union material.. if you know what I mean."
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:52 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Mark Shore from Ottawa, Canada writes: $16K/year for a safety-critical position needing several years of training, often self-financed? Words fail.
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:52 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Frank The Tank from Argentina writes: Scary how pilots are paid peanuts at $23 and uneducated CAW workers make $80 an hour.

Given the discrepancy in skill sets it should be CAW workers making $23/hr
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:53 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Terrible Jerry from Canada writes: How comforting to be on a plane co-piloted by a part time barista. I hope this airline is sued out of existence.
Posted 13/05/09 at 11:53 AM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Duke Smith from Canada writes: i honestly can't believe what i just read. i'm in shock. i made more money stocking shelves at a grocery store part time when i was a student.

is this what we've become? so obsessed with cheap flights and, frankly, cheap everything, that pilots have to take part time jobs and live with their parents? our global economy is one giant race to the bottom for everyone but the owners of capital. make as much profit as possible and squeeze as much out of your workers as possible. and these are the results. if you want to see some of the other results, drop by the maquilladora zone in Mexico or visit a sweatshop in india where your GAP chinos are made. this is disgraceful.
Posted 13/05/09 at 12:04 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Alberta Marlowe from Halifax, Canada writes: A person not much qualified for anything can make over $120,000 a year as the "spokesman" for the Nova Scotia premier; a "director of education", again, not much qualified for anything, at an Ontario school board makes well over $100,000 and a highly skilled pilot who holds the lives of hundreds of people in his or her hands makes $55,000? I bet most of the people killed in that crash made more than the pilots did.
Posted 13/05/09 at 12:05 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Aloha X from Toronto, Canada writes: For comparison, some 588 TTC staff earned $100,000 or more in 2008. That number includes 62 drivers and 21 station collectors, the people who staff subway fare booths.

http://www.thestar.com/News/GTA/article/611565
Posted 13/05/09 at 12:11 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Republic of Saturn from Canada writes:
This is so sad a story.

High skill, high technology knowledge required, very stressful jobs pay so little, low skill jobs pay that high since you're a member of some union....

Welcome to the wonderful world of communism, folks, it's a reality.
Posted 13/05/09 at 12:11 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

Eric Williams from Canada writes: Can we ascertain from this article that if you want to fly commercial airliners, expect to live frugally like an aspiring actor might during the early years of your career?
Posted 13/05/09 at 12:13 PM EDT | Alert an Editor | Link to Comment

[Jastapilot]

This is a great opening for Captain Sully, hero to the American public, to step forward, and restate what he's already said since his Hudson landing.

[WetJet]

Overtired, underpaid. Sad story, neither pilots could afford to live in Newark.

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2009/05/1 ... 51309.html

[Stinky]

Good video on CTV news comparing Colgan's pay to Porter. It's on part 1 of the May 13 news clip about 9 minutes in.

[aerodude]

Good video on CTV news comparing Colgan's pay to Porter. It's on part 1 of the May 13 news clip about 9 minutes in.

Ya saw that too. Looks a lot better for Porter in terms of PR that they got that public. Good on media to show this. Hopefully that will do a reality check to the other companies when negotiations come up in these tough times. If I was owner of Colgan Air, I would be $hitting in my pants to show my face in public knowing how Colgan pays their pilots. How the hell would you be able to live in large cities like New Jersey or New York?

[TyrellCorp]

Good video on CTV news comparing Colgan's pay to Porter. It's on part 1 of the May 13 news clip about 9 minutes in.

Ya saw that too. Looks a lot better for Porter in terms of PR that they got that public. Good on media to show this. Hopefully that will do a reality check to the other companies when negotiations come up in these tough times. If I was owner of Colgan Air, I would be $hitting in my pants to show my face in public knowing how Colgan pays their pilots. How the hell would you be able to live in large cities like New Jersey or New York?

Yes Porter's pay is higher but it's still LOW. An airline operation with the unique challenges of operating out of the Island should pay accordingly. I feel the left seat should be at least 100K for the level of responsibility that goes with it. They are an upscale airline and they should pay like one. In fact the whole Canadian industry has much room to move up in this regard. Of course this is something we all know.

[YHZChick]

I challenge you to find any aviation related story in the MSM where public comments were so supportive of the challenges--financial, stress, fatigue--professional pilots face. It was a nice change.

The average Joe has no clue (and I'm sure that they'll all forget should Air Canada go on strike...)

[bmc]

An airline operation with the unique challenges of operating out of the Island should pay accordingly.

What are the challenges of operating out of the island?

[365TAS]

An airline operation with the unique challenges of operating out of the Island should pay accordingly.

What are the challenges of operating out of the island?

Landing a 58000lb aircraft on a 4000' east-west strip in a crosswind during the winter off a 4.8degree ILS....or perhaps doing an RNAV approach requiring some low level manoevering because YYZ is using the 15's since the jet drivers can't handle a 15 kt crosswind so our ILS08 is shut down.....

[Donald]

Well since you guys have kept it between the lines, I think it must be more challenging to land a Dash 8-300 on a 10000' runway in the winter with no glideslope!



Kidding people.....

[bmc]

Thanks 365

Sounds like the lads have pulled seat cushions from time to time.

Are AC pilots are skilled enough to do that?

[Canoehead]

Landing a 58000lb aircraft on a 4000' east-west strip in a crosswind during the winter off a 4.8degree ILS....or perhaps doing an RNAV approach requiring some low level manoevering because YYZ is using the 15's since the jet drivers can't handle a 15 kt crosswind so our ILS08 is shut down.....

Is this where we pull out our wankers and say mine's bigger than yours? Give me a break.
Everybody has an argument about why they should be making more money... but to start throwing around 'scary' numbers doesn't cut it.

And FWIW, YYZ only uses the 15/33's when it's getting real stiff over there. Landing on the 24's with 300-330 @ 20-25 is normal ops there.

[tonysoprano]

Thanks 365

Sounds like the lads have pulled seat cushions from time to time.

Are AC pilots are skilled enough to do that?

Many AC pilots (yours truly included) flew Dash8s out of the Island for years. Gee maybe I should be payed more for flying a CatIII after flying all night or for landing in YYT on a dark and dirty night. Are you people for real?

[FICU]

How the hell would you be able to live in large cities like New Jersey or New York?

I think the starting pay for an Air Canada new hire who is based in Toronto should be flashed on the national news... it would open the eyes of a lot of the traveling public in Canada... another dirty secret.

[FICU]

Landing a 58000lb aircraft on a 4000' east-west strip in a crosswind during the winter off a 4.8degree ILS....or perhaps doing an RNAV approach requiring some low level manoevering because YYZ is using the 15's since the jet drivers can't handle a 15 kt crosswind so our ILS08 is shut down

It's part of the job, deal with it... you don't see other pilots talking up their challenges... what do you think of a non-precision approach to a 30 knot crosswind landing on a 5000 foot gravel runway with a landing weight of 107,000 pounds? How much should those guys make?

You're paid to fly and you have accepted what they pay you so there is no one to blame but yourself.

[bmc]

Kai Tak or Toronto Island. Which is more fun?

Tony...ever do Kai Tak?

[tonysoprano]

I did Kai Tak in my dreams once.

The scariest part of YTZ (in my opinion) was the full flap landing on the short 33(?). Hard landing's a given. That's about as scary as it gets there. I've gone in there in a Citation on a medivac. A none event. I can just see the look on DeLuces's face when someone asks for more money to fly the "mighty Q" out the "dreaded" ilsland. Pleease. Tell ya what, go try the "expressway visual" in LGA in a real airplane. Now that's FUN.

[Jastapilot]

An airline operation with the unique challenges of operating out of the Island should pay accordingly.

What are the challenges of operating out of the island?

Landing a 58000lb aircraft on a 4000' east-west strip in a crosswind during the winter off a 4.8degree ILS....or perhaps doing an RNAV approach requiring some low level manoevering because YYZ is using the 15's since the jet drivers can't handle a 15 kt crosswind so our ILS08 is shut down.....

@#$!, you need medals operating in such an environment!

[square]

You're paid to fly and you have accepted what they pay you so there is no one to blame but yourself.

Wow, if you wouldn't mind not being such a complete moron, that'd be super. You are clearly implying that we should all turn down every single job. All of them. Well OK, thanks a bunch for your input. What line of work would you recommend?

Anyway, of course they're getting underpaid. Everyone under the CP or widebody captain level is. And everyone of these shocked citizens will forget it in 15 minutes. Nothing will ever change. The laws of an overabundance of supply and a regular amount of demand will keep starting salaries at minimum wage.

Look at AC, they're even unionized and they start in the low 30K's.

[bmc]

You're paid to fly and you have accepted what they pay you so there is no one to blame but yourself.

Wow, if you wouldn't mind not being such a complete moron, that'd be super. You are clearly implying that we should all turn down every single job. All of them. Well OK, thanks a bunch for your input. What line of work would you recommend?

Medicine, law, your own business. Lots of things to do in life besides driving a plane and complaining about the compensation. I got fed up with my compensation in Canada and left.

[3Green]

An airline operation with the unique challenges of operating out of the Island should pay accordingly.

What are the challenges of operating out of the island?

Landing a 58000lb aircraft on a 4000' east-west strip in a crosswind during the winter off a 4.8degree ILS....or perhaps doing an RNAV approach requiring some low level manoevering because YYZ is using the 15's since the jet drivers can't handle a 15 kt crosswind so our ILS08 is shut down.....

Spoken like someone got a job with little experience to offer...sounds to me like somebody is outta their league

[FICU]

You are clearly implying that we should all turn down every single job. All of them. Well OK, thanks a bunch for your input. What line of work would you recommend?

I hear Transit bus drivers make more than most airline F/Os... nice and safe too!

I'm paid well... I wouldn't accept a job unless I was paid fairly.

[Handsome B. Wonderful]

Tell ya what, go try the "expressway visual" in LGA in a real airplane. Now that's FUN.

I'm sorry, I don't really care either way but I have to bite...What do you consider a "real" airplane? One that has fans on it? One that goes really fast? Maybe one that the wheels aren't falling off of??? (okay, sorry Q guys) AND an "expressway visual" onto an 8 or 10 thousand foot runway to boot? WOW, you must really have seen some shit, and be some kinda pilot. Hats off to you Man. Hold your head high and wear your hat with pride...

That's easily as lame a statement as the one you guys are bashing...Seriously

[bcflyer]

Actually the expressway visual is onto a 7000 ft runway, in a very busy environment, turning final at around 1-2 miles in aircraft weighing 40-70 tonnes or more. I've flown this approach and can tell you that its just as challenging as landing on 1500ft gravel strips. (which I've also done in the past.)

[Cat Driver]

What are the challenges of operating out of the island?

Parking your car and waiting for the ferry.

To suggest that the Island airport is a difficult airport to operate out of is really a stretch...unless of course you find it difficult and then you maybe should find another type of work.